Sticky Blood & Eyeliner, 750 Dirty Extras, and Why It’s Good to be Terrified (w/ Guest Heba Thorisdottir, makeup department head on films Babylon, Don’t Worry Darling, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Kill Bill) - How Band Aid & Quentin Tarantino launched c

Announcer | Welcome to the Two Stops Over podcast with your hosts cinematographer, Vance Burberry and director, Nigel Dick.
A show about stuff that goes on behind the camera along with mischief and special guests tossed in for fun.

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Vance | Hey everybody. Welcome to Two Stops Over here I'm here with Nigel happy 2023 everyone, Nigel, we've got someone really cool we're going to interview today you want to tell us about her?

Nigel | Yeah, I'm very excited to introduce in a minute a friend of both of ours Heba Thorisdottir, who's a makeup artist who did makeup on my first movie. She's now head of makeup on some very big movies. And I think is going to tell us about the movie she's been working on which has just been released, the Babylon movie directed by Damien Chazelle. And I think Heba is going to share some interesting insight for us into this new cinematic marvel.

Vance | Yeah, I mean, she's working with Brad Pitt and Margot Robbie on this film, and uh I've checked out the trailer. It's really, really beautiful. So I'm excited for this interview.

Nigel | It's lovely to see somebody who we both started out with working in the trenches working at the top of the field. So it'd be lovely to get her perspective on that. 

Vance | Actually speaking of starting out Nigel, you're gonna share with us one of the 12 things they don't teach you in film school.

Nigel | I would like to just mention to members of the audience that similar to when you see those cartoons of the beginning of the year and the year is seen in the form of a small baby with a number over its head in this case. 2023 wearing diapers to suggest it is the new year. And just to get in the act both Vance and myself are doing this episode in men's diapers.

Vance | You speak for yourself there. Haha

Nigel | You mean, you didn't join in?

Nigel | I feel exposed now

Nigel | Oh, the videos come on. Is that why you're wearing that extremely bright 
flowery shirt?

Nigel | If you wore that into a pub in England, they'd say nice shirt. Are you wearing 
that for a bet?

Vance | Ahaha... Yeah.

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Vance | So Nigel, you sent me a nice picture this morning of Vegemite and Marmite at cost plus world market.

Nigel | I did I was shopping for marmalade because wherever I go in the world, I have to have marmalade and I, unfortunately, something went terribly wrong and I had to buy 18 mince pies.

Vance | Hahahh.

Nigel | Please don't tell my wife.

Vance | Hahaha.

Nigel | And then while I was ferreting around, I came across this shelf with a bunch of Marmite and a bunch of Vegemite. And I sent you guys a picture of it.

Vance | Well funnily enough, I had a friend Rob over last night, who's a very English English person from Cornwall, who insisted to me that Marmite is vastly superior and he could tell the difference in a heartbeat. So, Lindha, the wonderful producer of this show, and my partner went into the toaster and loaded up two slices of bread 

Nigel | Hahaha

Vance | And spread one with, butter and Marmite and the other with Vegemite and butter. She brought it out into the kitchen and proceed to put a pair of like goggles you know, those sleeping masks that looked like actually a bra on his face, which was quite amusing unto itself and he ate both the Vegemite and the Marmite and absolutely insisted that the Vegemite was actually Marmite and suprior in its flavour. So there you go.

Nigel | Well, I mean, he does come from Cornwall, which is sort of isolated down on the bottom left of the island. So I mean, he's not really a member of the mainland, really, you know.

Nigel | He and his bretherin have been isolated there for many years. So I suspect that that might have had something to do with it. I mean, you know, Marmite is a very special part of British cuisine. And by the time it travels that far away from home base, so to speak, and then it does tend to get a little bit, you know, awful Vegemitey so I think that's the thing really, is that.

Nigel | When you get down to Cornwall, you're virtually in Australia. So what's the diff?

Vance | Well, you know, in Cornwall, umm being so, you know, far to the west, The Romans never got there. And look what happened to them. 

Nigel | Yes, so the question remains. Can you find Marmite in Scotland which is north of Hadrian's Wall?

Vance | Umm, yeah, and for Hadrian. Yeah, good fellow, that guy tried to keep the Scots out. But failed. Haha.

Nigel | Well, I went to Hadrian's Wall in May, for the first time in my life. And it's quite special, because it stretches from west coast of Britain to the east coast of Britain. And much of it still remains. 
...So we'll get off Roman history.

Nigel | And and let's talk about contemporary history. And I suspect that both of us are jumping in planes in the next day or two.

Vance | Yeah, I'm actually jumping on a plane tomorrow morning and going to head to New York and uh going to get some, get to have some fun with some, uh cinema toys. And I believe you are too.

Nigel | Well, I'm going to LaGuardia. And then I'm going up the coast to a mystery location, which I can possibly reveal later. And I think we're working at either ends of the financial spectrum. You mentioned you are going to have a special toy to play with is this, something that your partner knows about? Or is this something cinematographically?

Vance | It just cinematographically thing? Yeah, it's, uh, you know, has wheels and you know, does cool stuff when you spin the wheels in the right direction

Nigel | Mini Cooper?

Vance | Yeah, that's it. I'm gonna be driving a Mini Cooper in New York, and gonna earn some wages for that.

Nigel | Very good. And I'm going to be carrying my entire cinematographically, correct, pile of stuff in my carry on. I'm right at the other end of the spectrum. So I will have a massive crew of one, which would be me.

Nigel | The only thing I'm allowed to tell you is that, as well as being the director of photography, producer, and director, I've been elevated to perhaps the key position on the set, in that I will be providing craft service as well. So

Vance | Ahh, very nice.

Nigel | I'm looking forward to adding that to my resume.

Vance | Don't you find there's a certain amount of freedom in working that way? I mean, you know, it's great to have all these toys and people, but there's something special about being able to go out on your own, not have people breathing down your neck and just creating and having fun.

Nigel | Yes and no, I mean, certainly, if you are literally the only person on the crew, and there isn't an executive bench behind you. You can just go and do your thing. Though, I have to say at this stage of my life carrying a generator, fully loaded generator across a field, as well as operating a drone and playback is perhaps something that I did not imagine was going to be my future. Actually the one big advantage is that when somebody gives you a hard time, is that I just say, there's only one of me, this is what we're doing. Get used to it sit down and be quiet.

Nigel | But I think the truth of it is, is that we're lucky to be in a world where either we get to play with all the toys, which you will be doing, or I can carry with me, you know, in a small bag on the plane, a camera, which provides broadcast quality imagery, and the rest is up to me, and somebody of my limited technical skill can still provide good pictures and that's something we couldn't do 30 years ago.

Vance | Speaking of you and your directorial skills very early on in your career, there was a song which sort of shows up every Christmas called Do They Know It's Christmas Time? I was still touring in rock and roll as a lighting designer at that time, when that came out. So I was kind of unaware of it. But I did have a look at a copy of it on YouTube and like, my goodness, there was a lot of stars in that video. And you were not only the director, you will also the producer. Love to hear a little story about that, especially with one of your camera operators. That's quite well known these days.

Nigel | uhh, I was having lunch on a Wednesday. I was working at the record label at Geldof's record label. And my then boss Tony Powell called me into his office after lunch. And there was Bob, and he said Bob seen something on the news last night. Bob's gonna write a song, you're gonna make the video and it needs to be done by next Tuesday morning.

Nigel | And this is in the days of film.

Vance | This was six days away.

Nigel | Yeah. So Oh, and by the way, you don't have any money. [vance laughs] So, Bob goes away, and he writes the song. I ring up all these people and to my amazement, every one of them said, yes, "yeah, no problem." And I was doing a lot of the work at the time with a great English chap called Dave Bridges, who shared a company with Roger Deakins called Tattooist International, I think it was called.

Vance | Wow.

Nigel | And they said, yeah, we'll provide the cameras. Uhh you find the film. And we all showed up on Sunday morning. The only people who insisted on money were Kodak. And luckily, Michael Kuhn at Polygram said to me, if you do need to spend any money, I've got 10 grand I can access. So we spent every penny of that 10 grand on film, and we had three or two cameras rolling can't really remember now.

Vance | Yeah.

Nigel | And And so all the people you see in the in the video showed up about 11 o'clock on a Sunday morning, which in itself was a miracle.

Vance | and you had Sting, Bono.

Vance | Simon le bon and the list goes on.

Nigel | Boy George.

Vance | Yep.

Nigel | Status quo, cool & the gang, uhh, Jody Watley, Bananarama list goes on. And, one of the key moments I remember is that about lunchtime, a member of one of the bands goes 'Hey, Bob, what's uh, what's for lunch then?' Because they're all turned up and working for free, "what's for lunch?" [vance laughs] And there's a deathly quiet, because, of course, we're making a video to raise money for famine relief, essentially. And Bob turns around and he says, "You're a fucking pop star. There's a fuckin fish and chips shop down the road, go and buy your own fucking lunch."

Vance | Hahaha... that's awesome!

Nigel | And there's a sort of deathly quiet and everybody looks at each other and goes, "Yep, good point."

Vance | Haha

Nigel | And so we went on and there was a thousand extraordinary moments during the making of that video and the process that went on. And then we finished shooting about midnight, I took the film stock to Technicolor Labs, which is on the west, the road leading out of London by Heathrow.

Vance | Yeah.

Nigel | Went to bed, picked up the footage in the morning, then took it to a post production company called Visions. We did the transfer during the day, I stayed there all day. And then that evening, about six o'clock, the editor Dave Gardner came in and we sat down and we started editing the video. And we finished it literally at dawn the next morning, and

Vance | Wow

Nigel | Handed it over. It was then taken to the BBC, the BBC eventually, thanks to Bob's screaming and shouting, realize they were onto something. And they created a five minute gap before Top of the Pops that Thursday night. And to my huge pride, the video was introduced by David Bowie, and they played the video.

Nigel | And it became the biggest number one in British recording history, certainly at the time, when I mean.

Nigel | My mother who completely despised everything about what I did and worked for, went out and bought two copies.

Vance | Wow. So it was this, like the beginning of your career as a director, this kind of launched you a little bit because 1984 Right?

Nigel | Yeah, December 1984. Well, during the course of about six weeks, I mean, I had virtually nothing on my reel, I didn't really want to be a director to be honest. I'd sort of stumbled into producing. And in the space of six weeks, pretty much I shot four videos, which went to the top of the charts around the world. Band Aid, Do They Know It's Christmas? Shout for Tears for Fears. Everybody Wants to Rule the World, for Tears for Fears, and Things Can Only Get Better by Howard Jones. So sort of at the end of November, I didn't have a real by February, the phone started ringing. I mean, out of nowhere.

Vance | Isn't it amazing how you're almost a victim of circumstance and all of a sudden it turns into a career for you which obviously it's been an incredible career and uh, you're making stuff and enjoying it.

Nigel | Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is luck. And I describe it that making music videos is a bit like being that bird you see on the back of a water buffalo or an elephant on a nature program. In that it's very important to be that bird picking at the back of the big animal taking out the slugs and, ticks and whatnot. But without the big animal you don't have a career. So in my case, you know, I make the videos but without the artist and the record. Nothing, nada. 

Nigel | So no, I've been very lucky. Obviously as we both know, we've done had to do a lot of hard work. But yeah, I never dreamt I would wind up doing this.

Vance | Yeah, I mean, I guess I was the same way I was a rock and roll lighting designer that kind of fell into things also but that's another story. This sort of brings us into our guest today a little bit. I know Heba is a makeup artist, which I believe you gave her her start. So I think it might be nice if you could tell us about that real quick, and maybe introduce her.

Nigel | So when I did this Band Aid video and the Tears for Fears, videos and whatnot, I was working for Phonogram in London, who was a record company, which is part of Polygram. And then I got this chance. I met Steve Golin in Los Angeles after shooting the Everybody Wants to Rule the World video. And he contacted me later and he says, "Why don't you come to America and we'll find you work?" So I go to America. And as I was leaving the gentleman, Michael Kuhn, who I mentioned, who provided the 10 Grand for the Kodak film, for the Band Aid video, says to me, "I want to make a movie, it needs to have a car crash, a crossbow bolt through the neck, an explosion, and some sex. Do you want to pitch an idea for this movie?" So I'm like, "Yeah, all right." So I'd never pitched an idea for a movie. And I'm now in Los Angeles. And it's Thanksgiving weekend, I didn't know anybody, so I sat down and wrote a 17 page treatment which had all of the required elements. And to my amazement, he said, "Well, you and about 50 other people submitted ideas, but you're the only person who came in with who checked all the boxes. So you've got the gig." So I then had to go out and write a script. Well, me I didn't write the script, two fabulous gentelmen were hired to write script, John Dahl and David Warfield. And Steve Golin was the producer and Michael Kuhn rang me from London, and he said, "Well, who's going to produce this movie?" And I said, "Well, you should, you should meet these two guys, Steve Golin and Joni Sighvatsson and I introduced them. They went on too many great things, which is another story for another day. But anyway, suddenly I've been in LA seven months and I'm making a movie. And today's guest Heba Thorisdottir was the assistant makeup. The lead makeup person was Steve's wife Vilborg, also from Iceland, so suddenly I find myself in the middle of Hollywood really knowing nothing about directing at all making my first movie.

Vance | Wow, that's very cool

Nigel | Which brings us to Heba.

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Nigel | As well as discussing technical camera mumbo jumbo Vance, and I decided that Two Stops Over should delve further into what goes on behind the camera. Consequently, it gives me great pleasure to introduce an old friend of mine, who worked as assistant makeup artist on my first movie stepped up to work on David Lynch's Twin Peaks, graduated through music videos working with Bruce Springsteen, REM, Sting, and more, and has now become the go to makeup artist for many actors and actresses whose names you're familiar with. Her feature film credits cover some of the most fascinating films of the recent Hollywood age and include Suicide Squad, Kill Bill, Inglorious Basterds, Django Unchained, the Avengers, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, where she also appears on camera as Sonya the makeup artist and the newly released Babylon. And so welcome to Two Stops Over makeup department head Heba Thorisdottir, Hebs Good to see you again.

Heba | You too, you too.

Nigel | So the, here's the first big question. How did you get into this malarkey? How did this happen?

Heba | How did this happen Nigel? It happened that you hired me. Haha, basically.

Nigel | I'm not going to tell the audience how big the bribe but uh, that was, that was my first movie. I mean, it was horrible for me. How was it for you?

Heba | It was pretty horrible. Haha

Nigel | Was that because the director did not know what he was doing? Or was there other reasons?

Heba | Not at all, that was the best part of it. Umm I pretty much cried the whole way home every night. I was driving Joni home. And yeah, I cried almost every day

Nigel | Because you didn't know what you were doing or you didn't understand the process?

Heba | I mean, there was some of that, of course. None of us knew what we were doing, did we? But, but I can roll with that. I mean, I still don't know if I know what I'm doing, but I just go for it. 

Nigel | So, your big breakthrough, would that have been Kill Bill?
Haba | Yes, for sure. I was kind of at a place in my career where I was divorced. You know, I would split custody week in a week umm with with my ex Greg and, my dad pushed me to buy a house. And there was a writer strike, I believe, like for commercials and stuff. So I like I bought this house and I had like, no job and no income. I didn't know there was anything that was called EDD that I could have gotten some financial help through the union. So I I was just kind of like, drop my agent. And my best friend Brindy she was like, are you crazy? What are you gonna do? And I was like, I'm just gonna work for Quentin Tarantino and Cate Blanchett. And, I mean, I knew Quentin but I never really thought I would work on a movie with Quentin. Plus he hadn't done the movie for like four or five years at that point. And, he called me up and asked me to do do Kill Bill with him. And then my second movie was Cate Blanchett. And so I learned like once you send something out in the universe, it's going to come back to you, the good and the bad that you send out there, right? I'm trying to remember Nigel because you were there... because I hadn't been working for a while and then I was having lunch with you. And I got a call to do a photo shoot for a BB campaign with with Ellen von Unwerth. so and then the next day, I got the Kill Bill call. So it was like, you were there for all the milestones.

Nigel | Wow, I never knew that.

Heba | Yeah

Nigel | I never knew that that second part. So I guess you jump on a plane and you go to China right.

Heba | Yep

Nigel | And sort of jumping into the techniques of stuff that you do. I don't suppose there is a Hollywood style makeup store in Shanghai for you to get all your bits and bobs from so how does that work?

Heba | You order from my LA. Even when you're in Atlanta you order from LA like there are no beauty supplies anywhere. There's one in New York. but still like a lot of the makeup artists order from LA that just have the best service and cater for the studio services. It's like they have the storefront you can come in and buy but then you go in the back and that's a studio services. And they do the POs and handle all the ordering, they ship, you know, even in China or Germany. They just know how it all works.

Nigel | Well, Vance, over to you. I'm sure you got loads of questions.

Vance | Oh, yeah, I've got I've got a ton of questions. I did read about Inglorious Basterds and I thought it was a very interesting point that uh you guys are therapists, as well as makeup artists, and, you know, I know this from, walking into makeup trailer and, actor or actress is in a really grumpy mood, and the makeup artist tends to be the one that kind of can pull them out of it, or give them confidence if they're fearful and all that, that must add a layer of stress, or do you find that an interesting part of your job?

Heba | I've always said that I'm much better therapist than I'm a makeup artist. Hahaha. It's, it's a huge part of the job to read people and to read the room and, you know, just kind of feel whether they want to talk or not. And a lot of the bigger actors who can have their, private voice coats on set and stuff, they come and they are in the trailer, and, you know, with you and stuff, and just like you need to know when, where your place is. And, yes, and that's definitely includes we're like the last point before the director gets them in front of camera. 10 brownie stars for you Vance, haha. It's very rare that people recognize it.

Nigel | Oh, no, I mean, it's, it's very noticeable. If the makeup person is having a bad day, because everybody comes on to set, hahaha, very grumpy

Heba | You are right.

Nigel | In a state, and that is one of your many wonderful qualities is the sense of calm you bring into any situation

Vance | As a cinematographer, I certainly- There's various levels of makeup artists, obviously, you're on the A-list top level. And for us, you're the kind of people we'd like to work with. Because obviously, the shape of a face and how you treat that face and how maybe you- you're going to bring the eyes out, or you're going to bring the lips out, or whatever it may be is such an important part of cinematography. I mean, it's like, we need to work with you guys. And production design and costume design. It's the whole package. Do you find that with other cinematographers you work with? Or is that different from person to person? How is that?

Heba | It's definitely different, and I love collaborating with, with the DP. And I always make a point because it's usually like, most of you want to collaborate. And it's like, I know, you can make me or break me, hahah you know,

Vance | it goes both ways let me tell you.

Heba | And I always laugh because, when you're interviewing for a job, and you go through this scrutinous interviews and all this stuff, and I'm like, okay, so the director hires me. And then I just talked to the DP for the rest of the shoot. 

Vance | It's kind of true. I remember, I worked, I did a film, early 2000s. And I've worked with this makeup artist, her name was Christina Smith.

Heba | Oh yeah.

Vance | You know, her, you know, she has a couple of Oscar nominations. And uh one of the things I learnt from her for the big screen was you need to see the pores of the skin. 

Heba | Yes!

Vance | And I thought that was really interesting because she wasn't doing the the lead actress on this film. And she had a music video makeup artist who was nice, but she had makeup caked on. Yeah, it was makeup was piled on and there was nothing we could do about it. And it was a really a great lesson that I learned from someone with that sort of experience.

Heba | Yeah, when you see something, not just on the big screen, even like on your TV, what I strive to do is to make you relate to the person. And if they're just like glossed over with perfection, you don't relate. Like in like Don't Worry Darling, with the makeup, it's like with lead character Florence Pugh, Alice, she, she is like kind of the perfect Stepford Wife in the beginning, but very quickly, she start falling apart. And throughout the story, she's kind of trying to fit in and she gets better and she feels better, and she's trying to be like these other wives. So like, she's back into makeup. And it was so fun to really play all that up. And knowing that it was actually going to be on screen. and how Olivia Wilde tweeted it was like makeup was as important as the production design and the wardrobe, or costume design. It was really powerful to get to be a part of that storytelling. And also, because and thats back to like seeing pores and stuff, because even though Alice was like fitting in, she was not quite like the other wives. So they were all like very 50s and very Stepfordy. And you can often tell the story more with backgrounds, like they can be more in the period, and they can be more perfect than the lead actors.

Vance | That's really interesting.

Nigel | Because I'm just a director and I don't understand all this stuff. Could you two guys have a discussion about what works and what doesn't? Or why it doesn't work?

Vance | it's a case by case situation, skintone- certainly, you know, if you're for example, there's that new show Wednesday that's where the makeup the skins very pale. And if you notice in that context, the lighting is cooler. So it enhances the paleness of the skin. If you're doing Santa, you're gonna have these big rosy cheeks. And, you know, this is sort of a dramatic case in which then I've got warm... that sense of the fire light glow on the skin. The light can't compete with the skin tone, if that makes sense. So, if the movie has a cooler tone to it, you know, that's something you need to work with makeup on. And also wardrobe as well. And also even the shape of a person's face and the way- where's the key light coming from? Where do we want to fall into shadow? all these things come to play. What color their eyes? is the color of their eyes really important to make up around those eyes can either lift that up, orpull that back. So it's all of those things. Heba.

Heba | Yeah, I agree on all that. And I wanted to add in that, a lot of foundations today are not made for movie lights. And those are big companies that actresses constantly ask for. And sometimes it works. I'll just use it. It's not worth the fight. And they have like a high like mineral. in them that it changes in the light. It's just kind of goes really flat and gray. And and women apparently like to look like that, hahah.

Vance | Flat and grey

Heba | Yeah, hahaha

Vance | Well, you know, you've also when you've got you know, you're dealing either with African American skin or different skin tones. I mean, this all comes into play. And especially, you know, sometimes I found with African American faces, if their skin is very dark, is actually to have a little bit of sheen to it, and use reflections as opposed to a key and I think a movie we talked about not that long ago Nigel, Man on Fire. The way Denzel Washington's skin is lit a lot of the time, he has his beautiful skin tone that comes to life, because of the sheen.

Heba | When I have African Americans, especially men, I just like to put little highlights on them just to bring out the features a little bit. But otherwise, if they have good, clear skin, you know, just keep the skin but it just all depends on the DP and the lighting too what-what works.

Nigel | Vance has got a very important question.

Vance | I do I have a question because Nigel and I have shot Alice Cooper multiple times I read an article about you modeling Harley Quinn's makeup from Suicide Squad after Alice's makeup. I wonder what elements inspired you and how did you use them? Or how'd you bring your own take into that?

Heba | I was very proud when Alice Cooper retweeted that article. Haha it caught his eye. I didn't know we were changing her makeup. I knew we were changing. Like, it just didn't register with me. And I was just having a hard time coming up with something that hadn't been done before. It kind of had to tie a little bit in with what had been done before, but couldn't be the same and blah, blah, blah. So I was just thinking, like, if she was real, who would she be? She's such a badass, she would be Alice Cooper. I think it's like kind of maybe late 70s eye make up that, he has those kind of lines and stuff and yeah, we tried that the you know, the more kind of corners but that was like too much like the Joker. So we kind of went away from that when I decided she would be Alice Cooper then I just started looking at, you know, his old photographs kind of thing. And that's where it came from.

Nigel | So you're making a movie and um your lead actress is meant to be beautiful the whole way through the movie, and then a terrible accident occurs, and you have to go into special effects makeup, and she's got a gunshot wound or whatever is going down. Do you like doing special effects makeup? Or do you hand it over to somebody else to do the peeling skin? And the

Heba | Yeah,

Nigel | The wound.

Heba | No, I don't like doing any of that stuff. I don't like researching it. I don't like looking at those photos. But mainly, what I hate the most is like, being sticky with blood and stuff. And then I have to, like do her eyeliner. I just, you know, bring in sometimes assistant to do that. Or sometimes I hire a special effect that depends what, you know, I do some of it. And it's like, if it's on their face, like even if there is like an obviously in Quentin's movies, there's a lot of blood. And

Vance | No, no, kidding. Haha, Yeah, you started big with Kill Bill, didn't you?

Heba | Yeah. But, and I the first thing when Quentin called me and asked me to do the film, I was like, I was like, but your movies have so much blood in it. I don't do that stuff. And he was like, "oh, no, no, that's okay. I just want you for the beauty stuff. And then I have, like a whole special effects department" was this KNB Effects. And umm so it's kind of run as a different department, which is fantastic. And it is more and more it didn't used to be, but it's getting more and more specialized. Which obviously I like. Ahahaha

Nigel | I have a question for you Heba, which is probably the most important question 
of this entire interview sequence is that I understand you inspired the character of Heba The Snow Queen in Twin Peaks, ahahaha and of course this led to your acting debut as Sonya the makeup artist in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Could you share with us the the transition you went to you know, did you spend a couple of hours behind the bike sheds getting into character for the scene? You know, how long did it take you to learn the lines?

Heba | Uh, Well, I read the script. there was like, a hairdresser putting like a wig on Leo. And I was kind of like he has personal makeup and hair. So I was like Oh, they'll have Kathy put a wig on him. that's as far as I thought about it. And I had a little little dilemma, I had said yes to Captain Marvel. I was supposed to start and be done by mid June. Quentin was starting end of July. Then Captain Marvel pushed back. And Quentin wanted to start shooting like five weeks earlier. Hahaha. So there was like two or three weeks that kind of crossed over. 

Heba | So then Bill, the AD called me up and he's like, "You have to come I cannot push your scene any longer. So, I finished Captain Marvel. Monday morning I was on with Quentin. And I think I was shooting Tuesday. So Monday, I started reading the script again. And I was like, oh my god, like I have lines. I'm not just hands putting in, like putting a wig on. And I was like freaking out. I was like, I don't know how to learn lines hahah. And there was like not just one. There was also two scenes. Shepherd, my husband helped me learn the lines. And I kept repeating them. I didn't really have any system to do it. I mean, it's just couple of sentences. But for me it that's a big deal. Like because I was like I have accent. I don't like my voice. You know, I was just like freaking out about it. And then on the day of, I was like, okay, so I think I got this. I think I know this. They had like a trailer for me and everything. But I was like doing makeups. Ahahaha. So I like didn't really go in there except to just put my clothes on. And then Leo was like, he was like, Oh, you want to run line? So I was like, Yeah, sure. And I was like, forgot everything. I was like, ahaha I think I need to read them a couple more times. And he was like, Yeah, you should do that. But you know, I kind of learned when other actors are talking about actors and how generous they are and all that. And I was just always like, kind of like, yeah, I don't really know what that means. But now I really know what that means. And if I had had this with an actor that didn't know, that was like me, didn't know what they were doing. I couldn't have done it. he just helped me through it. 

Nigel | God bless him. So you know you're starting a movie, you've got a couple of very, very well known actors and actresses coming into your trailer every day. Apart from the obvious, you know, a mirror, a chair, a pile of your makeup things. What else do you have to have in your trailer to be able to make your day work?

Heba | My angel cards

Nigel | Your angel cards?

Heba | Ahahah yes.

Nigel | What are those?

Heba | They are little cards with like inspiration on them. We always have the actors 
do it in the beginning of the movie, or if they just need a little inspiration. We just always have like, always have like a little altar. And we burn candles and incense and just kind of set a tone for, for the day.

Vance | Yeah, that's nice. I like that. That's a cool, that's a cool thing to do. For Sure.

Vance | When when this podcast goes to air, there's going to be another movie that you completed and will have been released. It's called Babylon. Just saw the trailer of it it looks really beautiful. I mean, it's sort of that the transitional era between silent film and sound film, ahaha sound films.

Nigel | A flim with sound. Talkies

Heba | Yeah, Talkies.

Vance | Talkies, yeah let's have talkies. Talkies umm it looks like really fun. Did you 
have fun on that show? I mean, being a period piece. And is it something you really enjoyed?

Heba | I loved it. It. I mean, it was super hard, super, super hard. But I loved every minute of it. Because like, I have never gotten to be so creative on a job. As on that one. I've never had the collaboration that I had with Damien before. We were involved in, like casting with him. Like he would ask us, like, you know, on this person, you have to, you know, make them older, or you have to make them look like this or you have to do that. I love these two actors. I'm fine with either one who would work better for makeup and or hair so it's like, we got to be so involved that it was truly truly a different level.

Vance | Wow, I could certainly see that

Heba | Yeah. And he he would shoot like, you know, La La Land was the musical but and people always ask me like, oh, is Babylon a musical? And I'm like, no, but it kind of felt like that in some ways because the camera was the dancer there's a scene of kind of like uh homeless looking guys. And that day, we had 750 background and every single one of them had to go through makeup. We had the scene and it was just makeup because they were wearing like an armor. So you just saw the face and the hand and he wanted all of them dirtied up. Then we were using the same guys they had to change clothing and now be like a homeless people. So they were like hundreds of them. Not 750 but probably 200. Damien was like Heba that's one there right there in the back. Like, guy number 734 didn't have dirty teeth. I mean, that's how detailed he is. And for the big kind of orgy party scene when Margot's wearing like the red dress, and dancing and all that, and we had over 200 extras for I think we were shooting that for maybe two weeks with a weekend between or something. and just the tattoo cover on everybody. And then we have to have tatooed people. And you know, so it was just like, you're erasing it off of everybody here and you're putting in tattoos on these people. And they have to be period tattoos. And Damien, he went through casting of every single background. He picked the clothes they're wearing. And then he gave me a whole folder of inspiration for makeup that we would take and, like put with each person and he placed them all in the room where they were going to be.

Vance | that's amazing.

Heba | It was crazy.

Vance | DP on this was Linus Sandgren.

Heba | Yes

Vance | Who did La La Land also,

Heba | Yeah Scando.

Vance | Did you work? You guys work together Closely?

Heba | Yes. And even better because he's Swedish. Ahaha uhhh It was so fun to have 
another Scandinavian on set.

Nigel | I think that's actually one of the most wonderful parts about our jobs. Is, I mean, here we are. I've got an British background. Vance is from Australia, originally, you're from Iceland. You know, you had a Swedish DP. I've worked with French people on set, you know, whether it's in America or Spain I've shot all over the world, is that you really get a chance to share your culture with other people. Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure sitting in your chair. You know, so many people have sat in your chair for two hours before they go on set. You've had a conversation about where are you from? Oh what's Iceland like? I've never been I mean, we get to share umm hmm in other people's cultures, absolutely and bridge across the waters and the political lines and whatnot. I think that's an extraordinary part of our business.

Nigel | Heba, it's been wonderful to chat. I wish we could go on for another couple of hours. It's been far too long. Thank you so much for joining us on Two Stops Over and uh taking us away from F stops for a while and letting us concentrate on blushes and liners and things like that. looking forward to seeing your work on Babylon and seeing your name on the big screen soon. And of course, looking very much forward to your second acting role, which I'm sure will surprise me just as much as the first one did.

Vance | Yeah, thank you, Heba. It's so great to see you. It's been so many years so.

Heba | Thank you guys. It was awesome to catch up.

Nigel | Yeah, I can tell you one thing that when I go to the movies and I see your name 
come up there I go. That's fucking great. We used to work together. It's wonderful to see you you know, getting through and working with the big big folk it's fantastic.

Heba | Thank you, I've been lucky.

Vance | And Heba you know, you and I have one big thing in common this Dick over here gave us both a start. Which is pretty amazing.

Heba | I know. I remember.

Nigel | Yeah, both ways and little did I know how lucky I was in working with both of you.

Heba | You know you you were always grateful and gracious and fun.

Nigel | Little did you know what what going on in the background Ahahah

[music] 

Vance | So Nigel. Um, While we were in Torun, Poland, you did a seminar, which I really, really enjoyed, 12 Things They Do Not Teach You in Film School. I'd love you to share one of those right now for us. And I think everyone would really enjoy it.

Nigel | All right, well, thank you very much. It was never meant to be a technical list. But it- I think it turned out to be a sort of life story list, which is useful for lots of people, even if they're not in the film industry. So the section I'm going to share with you, I entitled Fear Factor. And ironically, it kind of starts with my dad, who was an officer in the Royal Air Force. And as a child, I noticed he was constantly having to get up at five o'clock in the morning to go to work. And then very often, he would fly away somewhere and disappear for a week or a month or something. So as a child, I vowed I was never going to do that.

Nigel | And of course, then I got involved in the film business. And what do you do? You get up at five o'clock in the morning to go to set and you fly off for a week or a month or whatever it is. So that's the irony of that part of it. Anyway, so one morning, I'm in a hotel thousands of miles away from my home, at five o'clock in the morning, and I get up and I go into the shower. And I'll spare you the intimate details of what I was doing then. But I suddenly realized I was shaking. I was quivering. And it wasn't with a joyful side. It wasn't because it was cold. It was because I was absolutely petrified. And the job I was involved in, as I've mentioned, I'd flown thousands of miles across the world to do this job. I suddenly realized that my artist had flown the other way around the world to come to this city to do this job. The client was flying in from New York. My director of photography had flown in from London, the second actor or artist, whatever you like to call him that we chosen had flown in from London as well. There were somebody outside waiting in a car when I finished my shower to whisk me off to the set, where I was going to meet about a hundred people I'd never met before.

Nigel | And I suddenly realized, this was a really important job. That people at the label had told me, "You can't screw this one up, this is important for the release of this record, it's going to be released at Christmas time. We need the money, blah, blah, blah." The record company's a major corporation, and it's all resting on my shoulders. And what if I screw it up, this is terrible. And then I had a moment of clarity, which was, if these people are flying from around the world, to come to this city, to watch me make this video, to direct this job, if this major corporation is prepared to spend this enormous amount of money on doing this, if they're happy that they put me up in a nice hotel, that means they have confidence in me. And at that moment, I realized if they have confidence in me, I need to have confidence in me. So I got dressed, went downstairs and did the job.

Nigel | In a similar story, or a story which ties in with this. After I'd done my first movie, one of the writers of the script, was given the chance to direct his first movie, and I'm sure he was probably pretty frightened as well. And in the weeks leading up to the shoot, he got more and more nervous. And one day his wife said, 'Come on, we're gonna go to an art gallery. We're gonna get out of here for a few hours.' So he goes with his wife to this art gallery in Los Angeles somewhere and he walks in and who is the first person who sees but Francis Ford Coppola. And he goes, I'm about to make a movie. Here's a man who's made ten fabulous movies. Perhaps I should ask him for some advice. So he goes up to Cappola and he says, I'm about to make my first movie, could you give me one piece of advice? And Coppola looks at him and says, If you don't feel you want to kill yourself every day, you're not trying hard enough.

Nigel | Now, this is where we get to the pith of the story. I believe that complacency is the enemy, when we're working in film, you have to be on your toes, you have to do the preparation. And on some level, if you're not terrified, then you're not trying hard enough. If you're not terrified, it means you don't really know what's at stake. And I think this is true, whether you're planning the office party, and you work in an accounting firm; it's true if you are starting a job for the first day or perhaps you are a lecturer going to a university to start lecturing there for five years, or whatever it is, we all get terrified. And if somebody has made a choice to bring you in, they have faith in you. So you should have faith in yourself. But above all, it's okay to be afraid. It means you really care about what you're doing. And I think for all of us who work in the film industry, we we really do care, we care about making the best possible work of art, film, video, commercial, whatever that we can, because we care. And if you don't care, you shouldn't be in this business.

Vance | You know, there's so much truth to that Nigel. And I know I for myself at this point, when I get the most excited is when I have some fear. Because I know that that fear actually helps elevate your game. And it just makes you better and makes you stronger.

Nigel | Yeah, I mean, it's natural to go, 'Oh, God, I don't want to do this.' Haha. But it means that all your senses are tweaked to 11. It took me years to figure this out. And strangely enough, I had not been as terrified on earlier jobs. And it's like, why is this happening now? But I realized that it's part of the process.

Vance | You've done this so long and so I've I've done what I do so long that you have all the tools in the toolkit, and you just know you need to dig into them and sometimes you need to dig a little deeper than others.

Nigel | Well, I'm sure you've been on set and you've set up the lighting for the close up for the very difficult artists that we're all working with, and that person decides they don't like the lighting. And suddenly all eyes are on you to fix it, and you better do it now. Otherwise, that person is going to throw a hissy fit and walk off set

Vance | Yep, that's how it is. I won't lie, I have walked up to a light and grabbed the back of it and wiggled it and haha, come back to the camera. And 'oh, that's perfect.' So there's that too, because there's their own fears are coming into play at that point.

Nigel | Yeah, I think that's that's the crucial thing is that we're all terrified.

Vance | Yeah, exactly.

Vance | On that note, Nigel, Let's hope uh you get to share the other 11 sections of your seminar with people during 2023 'cause I think it's a very valuable class, for sure.

Nigel | Well, thank you. I mean, and the funny thing is, I completely stumbled on it because Joanna, who we both met in Torun said to me would you do a seminar? And I said, Yeah, okay, I'll do something. And she said, What's the subject? And I went, uhhh, it's the only the only other thing I've really done regularly is, you know, the history of music videos, and I was tired of doing that. So on the spur of the moment, I just said, Well, I'll do a lecture on 12 things that you don't learn in film school, which is kind of crazy, because I've never been to film school. So I don't know what they learn. But nobody's called me on that so far. 

Nigel | Well, hopefully people can learn from it and nobody will ring me up and say, I followed your advice, and I crashed and burned and it's all your fault.

Vance | You've ruined my fucking career mate, didn't you? Hahaha, I go to Poland listen to you. And now look where I am.

Nigel | And I will respond. Join the queue pal. Hahaha. There's already 100 people behind me who say I've ruined their career.

Vance | Have a have a great 2023 everyone, and uh we'll see you in a couple of weeks.

Nigel | Actually a great 2022 because we haven't got to 2023 yet.

Vance | But it's 2023 by the time this episode airs, you silly bugger. Haha

Nigel | I wrote a check the other day, which said 19 I was right, 19 some, you know, 
just like, haha Oh my God that's 20 years ago. 

Vance | I wish

Nigel | it's so deep into your DNA that you know.

Nigel | YES, Happy New Year, everybody.

[music]

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