Rubber Suit, Underwater Frame Hog, and Adapt to Survive (w/ Guest Pete Romano ASC)

Nigel | Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Two Stops Over. We've got an exciting episode for you. But before we get into it, please get your raincoat and your wetsuit ready. And your flippers because we're going to get quite damp in this episode. we are speaking to a very esteemed person, perhaps you'd like to illuminate us Vance.

Vance | Yeah, well, we're going to be chatting with the great Pete Romano underwater cinematographer, actually Pete Romano ASC, I should say. He is a legend in our industry for underwater work. he has a company called Hydroflex, which make the premier underwater housings for motion picture work. remote heads, underwater lighting. his list of movies is staggering. And you'll hear more about that when we chat with him.

Nigel | And just one piece of clarity you said he's ASC does that stand for Australian Silly Chap?

Vance | No, I would be the Australian Silly Chap. This would be the American Society of Cinematographers.

Nigel | Thank you for that clarification.

Vance | Also Nigel, during our last segment, I want to share with everyone what kind of person it takes to become an underwater cinematographer. And maybe what skillset you need to work on to do so. Um, you'll find it interesting, I'm sure.

Nigel | I'm getting my wetsuit ready.

Vance | You're gonna look great in a rubber suit Nigel... [laughs]

Nigel | Do I need talcum powder?
 
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Nigel | My name is Dick. Your name is Burberry. What have we been up to?

Vance | I've been in uh Barcelona, Mallorca, and also Dominica in the Caribbean shooting some jobs.

Nigel | So did you fly direct from Spain to Dominica?

Vance | Um no, we went back to New York, And then we uh headed off to Dominica from there via Miami. We had to spend a day in Miami. Um, local camera crew and camera house to prep our gear and then stuck it on the plane and went to Dominica, which was pretty crazy. The flight in, um captain at the start of the flight said people on the left of the plane, it's going to be a great view out of the window as you're going into Dominica. And we're thinking, oh, okay, it's going to be very pretty. Well um, the 45 degree banking through the mountains as you go into this very short runwayed airport and you're on short final and the wingtips look like they're going to hit the tops of the palm trees. And you land on this tiny runway and you stop just short of the ocean. It was kind of thrilling.

Nigel | I'd always wanted to go to Hong Kong 'cause you flew literally through the city to the original airport. But when I went to Hong Kong, I didn't have that chance because they built a new airport out in the water.

Vance | I actually remember doing that flying into Hong Kong. And literally you're right, you're flying through the buildings and you're seeing people's laundry hanging off the balconies and stuff as you fly by the buildings.

Nigel | If you go and climb Mount Everest, there is the highest airport in the world, which you can find on YouTube, clips of people landing, and you land on the edge of a cliff, and then the plane goes up the hill, the uh runway, and then there's a solid wall in front of you. So if the guy doesn't get his brakes on in time - and it's fascinating to watch. And of course, when you take off, the plane turns around and goes around down the other way and goes hurtling down the hill and then just has no choice but to take off because you run out of runway. I mean, it's terrifying.

Nigel | So, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, the subtext of this story is that if you wish to join the film business, you better like getting into planes.

Vance | Yeah, I do. I actually fly them as well. So- little planes, not big planes, but aviation I love a lot

Nigel | Yeah, If you hate to fly, don't get into the film business. Unless you just want to stay in your hometown.

Vance | Well, look at uh Stanley Kubrick. He did all right, and he wouldn't get on airplane.

Vance | Hence they made Full Metal Jacket in England and flew in the palm trees

Nigel | In London!

Vance | In London. Exactly.

Nigel | When I went to Vietnam, I was shocked. It looked nothing like [Vance laughs] Full Metal Jacket

Nigel | And of course, the real uh response to that sentence is, uh Full Metal Jacket looks nothing like Vietnam.

Vance | [laughs] Now you had some adventures?

Nigel | I had some adventures. I didn't get any stamps in my passport, unfortunately. Uh, I went up to Seattle to shoot Carl Vaheyan, who's an old friend, and I've done a lot of work with him, and he was doing a gig. So I shot five camera shoot on my own, in a club. And then We got on a ferry and went across to Bainbridge Island, where I did some pickup shots for another job I've been doing for him. Then I went north up to a town whose name I consistently forget, to make uh a video for, a gentleman called Keith Brock, who has an outfit called Keith Brock and the Kings of Rock.

Nigel | So uh I did a shoot up there and then back to Seattle to shoot three days of interviews for a documentary that I'm doing for a club called the Central, which is in the heart of Seattle and is billed as um Seattle's oldest saloon. I think it was opened in 1889, I should know, um but basically in the 19th century and over the years, as well as being a gig, incidentally a gig where supposedly Nirvana played their first ever proper gig that wasn't at somebody's house, at which three people showed up, apparently. [vance laugh]

Nigel | I'm trying to find the truth about that. Um, and originally it was a bar. Then it became a post office. There's rumor it was a bordello for a while, in the 70s, a a famed um Washington, uh potential governor ran his campaign out of the front of the building, um and it was then bought by two engineers from Boeing who ran it as a club.

Nigel | And then it became the heart of the grunge movement with uh all your bands like Sound Garden and whatnot, Alice in Chains. And I interviewed Susan Silver, who uh managed Alice in Chains, who worked in the office upstairs. So I'm making a documentary about this place, which is quite a challenge because, of course, it's an inanimate object. It's basically four brick walls. So I'm paraphrasing the project as The Central: 3,000 Square Feet of History.

Vance | the way you approach these gigs, I think is pretty incredible. And I got to say, I admire you for it. I know I couldn't do it, that's for sure. You have four, five cameras. You um load in, you load out, you shoot, you light, you do sound, you edit, you direct. Umm, do you take a mirror so you can tell yourself off when you haven't got the angle right? I don't know.

Nigel | Um no, I was actually just looking at something I shot last- couple of weeks ago and to just check it was all right. I just uploaded it last night and I noticed that on the wide shot, you can see the uh lavalier pack in shot. Just a little bit. And I'm like, God gahh, I'm just screaming at myself. And unfortunately, this is a side effect of doing all these jobs on your own.

Nigel | So you just have to be very very aware. And of course, you're using every neuron of your remaining brain cell to try and make sure that things are going right. But uh, you know, ultimately, you will find out, uh as I did recently on another job that you set up the shot, everything's perfect. And then as you turn around and walk back to the cameras to start rolling, the person you're interviewing shuffles two inches forward in their chair and the closeup goes out of focus. [Vance: Yup] And you don't notice until- because you're interviewing as well.

Nigel | So, yeah, of course, you cannot do all of these things perfectly, and that you just have to accept that.

Vance | Yeah, I think you're able to bring everything together and always create a good product you're proud of. So I think that's really fantastic. So, props to ya, Nige.

Nigel | Well, thank you very much. but at this stage in my career, I should be able to do all that stuff. I should have been able to have learnt, and if I haven't. And also, I think it's very important that what we do, and it's true of many businesses, not just our film business, that you have to adapt to survive. Everybody's talking about AI right now, and my wife is a writer, and she's very concerned about what AI is going to do to her career as a writer. So we adapt.

Vance | I thought it was interesting, Simon Pegg um made a comment about AI.

Vance |  AI has not been through a divorce, or had children, or lost a loved one, or fallen in love. so I think that human aspect is probably still lacking, I would hope, um but we'll see.

Nigel | As well as Dominica, I understand you went to Spain and you were in Barcelona. So tell me all about that because I have a question for you in a minute.

Vance | All right. So um the first part of this job uh shooting beautiful hotels was um actually in Mallorca, Spain. But first, um Lindha and I wanted to um to check out Barcelona. The production company, or the local production company was in Barcelona. So spent four days in Barcelona, which is really an amazing city. Um, I got taught how to make Paella in a class, which was really amazing. Of course, visited the Gaudi Cathedral, which was incredibly beautiful. Just culturally and the food, it was just a wonderful place. And, the architecture and you know the old city being so... old. , But after that, we went to Mallorca, um which we where we shot our job. Um, local Spanish crew, which were amazing, especially our AD, Guillermo, who was actually from Madrid. Um, but incredibly professional crew.

Nigel | So I spent three months in Barcelona making a movie. And actually, incidentally, our AD was also called Guillermo and also came from Madrid. So I suspect it might have been the same guy. Wonderful. A wonderful guy. [Vance: Yeah] I was in an apartment, two minutes walk from uh from the Cathedral, and you kind of wonder what would have happened if somebody'd given Gaudi a ruler. [Vance laughs] That's an architectural concept for another day. Um so I, like I said, I spent three months making a movie in Barcelona. And my question for you is, Vance, does Barcelona look like Los Angeles?

Vance | When you're flying in, yes, it does. I think.

Nigel | But when you're on the ground with a camera, do you think it resembles Los Angeles in any way?

Vance | No. Not really, no.

Nigel | I agree with you on this, which was why I had a bit of a problem when I was making this movie in that it was set in Los Angeles. [Laughs]

Nigel | So this is something that we've had to do a number of times. You and I have actually shot um a commercial in Rio de Janeiro, making it look like New York.

Vance | Yes, we did.

Nigel | I've actually shot two commercials in Brazil, making it look like New York. I've shot London for the Catskills, Toronto for London, New York for Los Angeles, and another movie I did, I shot in Vancouver and had scenes in Florida that I had to shoot in Vancouver in December, [Laughs] you know, with mountains, fir trees, and a shitload of rain. [Vance: Yup] And so this is part of our job is that very often we have to go somewhere and make it look like somewhere else. I mean I'm sure you have experiences like that.

Vance | Oh God, when I shot that movie Taxi with Queen Latifa and Jimmy Fallon, I think it was in 2003, uh we were supposed to shoot 27 days in New York. Um, we were 12 days in and they were like, Okay, this is getting too expensive, or whatever. I can't remember the reason. I think it was... There was a number of reasons that we picked up and uh got on a plane and flew everybody back to Los Angeles. And then we had to make downtown LA look like New York.

Nigel | Our very first guest, if you remember, um shot that movie in New York and actually shot it in Philadelphia, but had to make it look like New York. So this is part of our business is going somewhere and then making it look like somewhere else, which is insane.

Vance | Yeah. And we had to shoot... uh like the- One of- one of the scenes, there's a showdown on a freeway, on an elevated freeway, which we actually closed down the 110 Freeway, and then made that look like, you know, on the overhead, the high area of the 110 in downtown LA. And that became the meadowlands in New Jersey.

Nigel | Well, here's the other side effect is that, um many times, especially when you're doing commercials, they send you to the far side of the world but want it to look like New York or wherever, simply because of the money that they have to pay to the actors. [Vance: Yup] And I think maybe the- I can't remember which one of the two commercials it was I shot in, in uh Brazil. But the client, when they saw the footage, was appalled because the piece that we were doing was for the Latino market in America. And the client said, None of these people look Latin to us. Their, you know, their features are wrong. And I said, Well, that's because we're in Brazil. Firstly, they all speak Portuguese, and they have a different, you know their faces look different. So it's very interesting because of money, they want you to go somewhere else. And I actually lost a job for a commercial, which they wanted to shoot in New Zealand and they wanted it to look like a park in, you know, an urban area of New York. And I said to them on the call, the big call that you have to do to get the job, I said, I looked at your storyboard and you have good looking African American actors in this piece.

Nigel | Where Are you going to fly them in? And they said, Oh, no, we'll get people in New Zealand. It's like, Guys, have you ever been New Zealand? They have lots of lovely, Māori people, big beefy rugby players and whatnot with tattoos on their faces. And they're wonderful folk, lovely. But it does not look like an urban basketball court in the middle of New York. [Vance: No]

Nigel | You're going to have trouble finding those people. when I did this movie in Barcelona, it was supposed to be in Los Angeles. And after the one day shooting where we had a crowd scene, I said to my producer, Look, this crowd is terribly white. If we were in Los Angeles, you'd have black faces here, and we have to get some people like this. Oh, no problem, they say. So you show up the next day, and certainly there were African faces, but they weren't African American faces. And you could tell these people had just popped across the Med from Morocco or wherever. They had the beautifully colored, drapey outfits, but it did not look like Los Angeles. So that's the trouble. You fly around the world and try and make it look like somewhere else. did you have the strange hours when you were shooting in Mallorca?

Vance | Um no, we were just shooting normal hours. There was nothing strange about it. Normal sort of, 12 hours shoot day, you know, hour for lunch.

Nigel | That- that was my issue is that I got the gig and they said, Well, it's a 19 day shoot in Barcelona. And I figured I could do it in that time. But you turn up at seven o'clock, at ten o'clock, you had to stop for 45 minutes for sandwiches. At one o'clock, you'd stop for an hour for lunch. And then at four o'clock, they'd all walk away and go home. So of course, I banked on it being a nineteen day, 12 hour shoot, and it was nothing like that. It's interesting.

Vance | Yeah, it is.

Nigel | I think we should do a travel show. [Vance: Yeah lets do a travel show] Can we do a travel show and be sponsored by... I want to go to Dominica. I know you've now been, but I've not.

Vance |  it's amazing. I went diving there and there's a marine sanctuary. Oh my God, it was incredible. unlike a lot of the other Caribbean islands, it's very mountainous. It's a volcanic island, has numerous waterfalls. We went canyoning, which was these incredible canyons where we're jumping 20 feet into water and rappelling down the side of rocks. And the people were great and it was just spectacular.

Nigel | I've shot in 38 countries, I think. It's been extraordinary.

Vance | Yeah, we're very fortunate to do what we do and experience what we experience. The great thing is too when you're going you know, to shoot a job, you're working with locals inherently, and those locals show you a side of the country or the city you're going to, that is not something you'd normally experience as a tourist. And I think that's- that's what makes it really special.

Nigel | Yes. Location scouting in a foreign country is fantastic because you get entrée into all these places that a normal tourist would never go to.

Vance | Yeah, I mean, Just scouting around Prague. You know, I mean you've got so much history in that country.

Nigel | I shot a Celine video in Prague, well just outside Prague, We actually shot in this palace that is closed to the public and nobody ever goes in, and is only very rarely used.

Vance | That's funny, we shot in a palace that was closed too For a, deodrant commercial, but yeah it was just outisde of Prague. We shot inside a little bit and mostly on the grounds, actually. But yeah, it was pretty amazing.

Nigel | So people of podcast land, if you want to travel, get in the film business.

Nigel | So um Vance, I think you're going to tell us about our special guest today whose name is Pete Romano.

Vance | you know, I've been diving for many, many, many, many years. You know, I'm a land cinematographer. I always wanted to get in the water with a camera, I didn't know much about what I was doing underwater at that time, except I could point the camera and I could light. And you know, I had the diving skills needed to operate a camera. And I remember I had the first thing was a Hydroflex uh shallow water housing with an ARRI 3 in it, um shooting a dog in a swimming pool. Swimming. [laughs] It's true. And kinda that was the first thing I did.

Vance | And it's kind of evolved from there. And you know, I really love it. And Actually uh, our guest today um answered a lot of questions for me when I was starting out.

Nigel | I think the thing that I find interesting about his story is very similar to our two stories is that we started out doing one thing and wound up doing something else and discovered a passion project for life And um I love the way that it seems that every time he came to another juncture, he used his initiative to go and find himself the next stage of his career. And uh I think that's a big lesson for us all. And it goes back to that line I said earlier of you know, you have to adapt to survive or adapt to succeed. Because the real world does not necessarily work in the way we want it to.

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Vance | Joining us today is legendary underwater cinematographer Pete Romano ASC. Pete has shot the underwater work for so many iconic films, including The Abyss, Titanic, True Lies, Inception, Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation, Ad Astra, and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, just to name a few. I think there's about 176 credits on IMDB, but I'm sure there's more than that. He also founded Hydroflex, the premier underwater housing and lighting company based in Los Angeles. Over the years, Pete has also been incredibly generous with me, sharing his knowledge and expertise, for which I am eternally grateful. There's a lot to unpack today, so let's get to it. Pete, welcome to Two Stops Over. So appreciate you taking the time to chat with Nigel and I. How are you today?

Pete | I am very well and thank you for having me.

Nigel | I'm going to jump in with the first question, Pete. Um, we work in the creative world, all of us, and I understand you received your first training in motion picture photography in the Navy, and I'm interested to know what that involved and was it creative?

Pete | Well, I mean the Navy is not known for its creativity in film work. It's more documenting. [laughs]. Um, so but I got an amazing foundation going through the Navy photo schools, and that to this day still helps me through it. I have a total understanding of film. That's what we started with was a 4x5 Graflex. Um, so just being able to have a negative that size to start with was pretty amazing.

Nigel | To start in the film with the Navy, was there a requirement that you had any understanding, any visual knowledge? Did they put you through a test to see if you should join the team or was it just "Uh, you over there, take a right, go through that door. Your first lesson starts in five minutes." How did that work out?

Pete | Well, you know, fate and circumstances. Um, I was stationed at Point Mugu, and it unbeknownst to me, there was an underwater photo team that used to work with Barking Sands Hawaii. It's sorta like a sister thing with targets out in the middle of the ocean. A good friend of mine who's still a very good friend, he uh was an avid diver surfer from Hawaii, and he went for the billet. But Cedric had extremely poor, and still does, poor eyesight. He couldn't become a Navy diver because if he lost his mask, even if it were prescription, he was legally blind underwater. So, Cedric was out and we were bummed, and we were out sorta commiserating that night. And uh, On a spur of the moment, I said, Cedric, you don't mind if I give this a shot, do you? I never dove in my life. It was anything to get out of a boring job. So, he said, "no, man, go ahead." So, the first test, of course, was your eyesight and the physical. And then they put you in a recompression chamber and press you down to 60 feet and give you pure oxygen to see if you go into convulsions because people take O2 hits.

Pete | So, if you take an O2 hit, you're done. You can't be a Navy diver. So I passed that. Then I had to drive all the way down to San Diego to 32nd Street in the second-class diving barge. Without ever diving, I've never been underwater with a breathing apparatus my entire life. They set me up and stuck me into a complete Mark V deep sea diver helmet. The big brass helmet, 200 pounds of gear, lead shoes, the whole thing. Um, and they threw me over the side for over an hour with all of the ports blacked out. They wanted to know if I was susceptible to claustrophobia. So, I did it, and then I became a diver. Um, so that's- that changed my life. That's how I got into this.

Vance | Nice. I wanna transition to, you know, being a uh cinema underwater cameraman. now you developed your own camera housings, right? And uh, did you have an engineering background? How did that come about and how did you start making underwater housings?

Pete | No engineering background. I made it through high school. I just you know, I wasn't interested in anything other than playing around

Pete | So, when I got out of the Navy and I had that experience of shooting underwater, I wanted to continue it. And I had met an underwater documentary cameraman who was up in San Francisco. I called him and said, "Hey, I just got out. I'd love to work with you." And he said, "Sorry, kiddo. No openings." I went, "Okay." And as we're hanging up, I blurted out, "What would be a skill valuable for future employment?" And he said machining. And I didn't know what a lathe or mill was at that time.

Pete | And that's no kidding. So the next day, I went down to San Diego City College and enrolled in a two year machine course. And from there, I started building housing for that guy. Ultimately, two and a half years later, I did end up working for him, And I really enjoyed making things, which I didn't- I didn't know at that time. I realized that, you know, I have a spatial aptitude that has really helped me out quite a bit. Uh, but then I had to move on. I wanted to get into Hollywood. I wanted to get into feature work.

Pete | And of course, I wasn't in the Union. Um, came down to LA to get seek my fortune. That was a bust. It was actually during a strike back in jeez, '79, '80, something like that. Um, so ultimately, I ended up getting hired at ILM. I was living in San Francisco at the time, going back and forth LA, San Francisco. Um, but then through a series of fortunate events, I met somebody at ILM.

Pete | And months later, I called him and said, "Hey, anything going on at Lucasfilm?" So they were just gearing up for uh E.T., Poltergeist, Star Trek 4. Uh, and I went over and applied and got hired on. Then my first feature film in visual effects was Poltergeist. But I also had access to a machine shop, and I made my first solo underwater housing in ILM's machine shop at night and on weekends. So that's how that all started. And um I ended up working there on a couple of films and I left in the middle of Return of the Jedi because I get bored doing stop motion

Pete | Uh, and I moved to Florida, worked with Jordan Klein and established filmmaker underwater, built housing for him. Oh god, we did Never Say Never, Jaws 3D, and Splash. And I finally gave up on Florida and decided to move to back to LA. And I started at Boss Film. Richard Edelman and some of the higher ups at ILM had started at Boss Film, left ILM. And I started up with them on Ghostbusters. And I had full reign of the Machine Shop again, and I built my first two 35 three underwater housings with reflex viewing and video. And I think that might have been a first for all of those things combined.

Pete | Claremont Camera gave me the cameras and all of that. So that's what started it. Umm, and then, of course, the tail started wagging the dog big time. And I got involved with the Cousteaus and building equipment for Jacques and for Jean-Michel. Um, then I finally broke out and did my own stuff and started my little shop, which was like a 20 by 30-foot space with a mill and a lathe and a band saw. That was it. That's how it all came about.

Vance | That's so cool, Pete. [laughs]

Nigel | Before we go further into the technical stuff, which Vance loves because he is the
diving dude on this team, it took me a long time to realize that there's actually an issue when you go underwater with lenses because the water, of course, is a big lens all of its own. For people who are not conversant like me, could you give us a quick one-minute uh overview of what happens when you take a regular camera, put it in a box with a pane of glass on the front, and take it down into the depths,

Pete | Well, there are two view ports that are typically used, a flat port and a dome port. Flat ports was really how underwater filming started. Back in I think it was Louis Boutan in the late 1800s. A French gentleman, I believe, was the first one to take underwater photographs. Um, and the flat ports were really the only thing was available up until, I think the early 60s. So, what happens with a flat piece of glass? You have the housing, lens, air, glass, and then the water. And you're dealing with refraction, and you can't change it. It's physics, it's the way it works. And that flat plane of glass changes the lens acceptance angle by 25%. So, if you had a 50-millimeter lens, that's now going to be like a 62, 63. Automatically gets tighter, and you can't change that. Now it also throws your focus 25% closer to you. So that, that was how it began. Then I forget the gentleman's name, but early 60s, came up with a dome port.

Pete | And the dome port really corrected a lot of the problems with the flat port. You maintain the acceptance angle of the lens, so a 14 is a 14. Um, you eliminate a whole bunch of chromatic aberrations because as the light goes through that flat glass, it- it's broken up into the spectrum and it- it sort of it bleeds out. So, it isn't as good as with the dome, but I would venture to say that most people who watch a movie wouldn't be able to tell dome versus flat if their life depended on it.

Pete | Um, the only issue with the dome port is you have to realize that you're not focusing on the apparent object that's in front of you. The dome, the water and the air and the lens create an aerial image. You can't see it, you can't touch it, but it's hard to explain. Even for myself, who's worked with aerial printers back in ILM many, many years ago. Um, but the fact remains, it is true. And we do our classes all the time. And I know Vance does his classes for underwater. And we typically set up a housing with a camera, and we put a chart in front of it, and we have the students focus on that.

Pete | And once they focus and they got a sharp image, they look inside the housing through a port, and the lens, footage ring is probably down about 18 inches, 14 inches for 6 to 8 feet away. So, it's eye focus, understanding that principle, even though you can't describe it completely, you just have to understand that it works.

Vance | I learned all this from you. I know about this now, obviously, and you're the guy that taught me about that so, thank you for that.

Vance |  1981, uh you worked on a James Bond film For Your Eyes Only. And there's a shark sequence in which I believe uh you have a fun little story about that.

Pete | Well, you know, omnipotence rains when you're young. The whole thing was um Bond and Molina were being dragged by the bad guys through the coral. And there's blood in the water bringing in the sharks. And the boats making turns and dragging them through the coral. So they're bleeding. And one turn, the Bond character wraps the cable of the line that's being, he's being towed with around the coral head. The boat takes a strain on it. And in between our actors who are being pulled through the water and the boat is this sort of buoy. So, the boat takes a strain on the coral. The buoy flips out of the water, and it knocks the guy, the bad guy on the back deck, into the water, into the sharks. It just so happened that my hairline... [laughs]

Vance | [laughs]

Pete | ...is close to his. So, um I did probably one of the silliest, uh I could even say the stupidest things I've ever done in my life. Um, so here I am. I now have to be attacked, be attacked by sharks, literally being attacked. And they would capture the sharks at night, and they would put them in a pen on a boat. So, they were kinda slowed down and lethargic. Um, and you can't do that today, by the way, just so you know, that's all gone. This was 40, some 50 years ago. So Basically, I now am on the surface of the water in wardrobe, and I'm just screaming and yelling. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there's two cameras down there, Al Giddings and Chuck Nicklin holding cameras. And on either side of them, it's Artie Maleski and Alex Edlin, both holding 7-foot sharks by the pecs under their arm. And so, it's okay, roll camera. Now, meanwhile, um I think everybody thought at that point I was absolutely insane for what I was doing because they were throwing live sharks right at me. They had a helicopter on standby. The hospital was noticed. I mean, we had [Vance Laughs] we had, boats everywhere. Umm and so we did a couple of takes. So it's a roll camera, and then they shove the sharks right up at me.

Pete | And I think it's a 1976 issue of American cinematographer. I'm on the cover, but all you can see is my neck down. [laughs] And the sharks coming up at me and the camera is down there. and so We did a number of takes. I remember kicking a shark by mistake. And I had taken a piece of thin aluminum and put it in the top of my Adidas sneakers. No kidding. Just in case I got bit on the foot, it might help. You know, I didn't know. Uh, so, on the last take, you know they whip the sharks out at me, and the larger of the two ends up coming in between my legs, literally. And his dorsal, his fin, hits me, guess where? And basically, I was facing back of the shark, and I just rolled off. I'm like, you roll off a horse, and he just kept going. Meanwhile, everybody in the whole video village, in the whole area went absolutely insane because they thought I got attacked. I'm looking around, everybody's running around like madness. And, you know, "what's wrong?" Anyway, that was the story. And I don't think I do it though.


Just wanted to jump in here real quick - Pete wanted everyone to know that no sharks were harmed during the making of this film - and were released into the wild afterwards. Now back to the interview.
 
Vance | I'm sure you've been asked about this many times, but I do want to talk about it because I think it's a pretty iconic piece of work. And you developed, I believe, two housing for it. And also a lighting– the uh 1200 PAR light is the Abyss. Um, working with James Cameron. Um, there was a lot to that. I know it was shot in an old, a not-built nuclear power plant.

Pete | Correct.

Vance | so, can we talk about that a little bit? [Pete: Sure!]  I think you're credited as a lighting designer, or you designed the lighting equipment for that?

Pete | I think there might be a couple there, but yes, um I mean the whole thing. I mean Jim, that show, nobody else could have pulled off. Jim, I think, is the only person who would have had the energy and the insight to be able to put this together. He's a driven man, and, and I swear, nobody could have done that. Um, early on when I went in for an interview with Jim, before production started, months before production started, I went in there to plead my case to shoot the visual effects. And um, I ultimately did. But during that conversation, while we were wrapping up, Jim says, so uh what are you doing now? Because I was building little housings and stuff, and uh, other 35 housings. Then I started building some smaller, 650 incandescent lights, little PAR lights. I said, Yeah I'm making some lights for this and for that. He said, well, would you like to bid on the lighting package for the Abyss? I went, Well, okay. But it wasn't in my toolbox at the time. Um, and it just so happens that, that was after I had done a movie called Jaws: The Revenge, a totally forgettable movie. [laughs] Um, but during that, that Jaws: The Revenge, I believe that HMIs were just new into the industry.

Pete | This would have been '87, I believe. And I remember we were shooting underneath the pier at night, and we needed a little light and we didn't really want to light it. So, the whole pier over, one 1200-watt light coming in at an angle, lit underneath that pier. I was so sold on HMI lighting. So, in this conversation with Jim, I said, Okay, um how about HMI? How about a 1200 HMI? He goes, no, I want a 5K. I want a five- I want a big light. I don't even think 4Ks or large HMIs were available back then. And he was adamant. "No." And I said, Jim, if you're going to put a 10K under water, do you understand the size of that fixture and what it's going to take? It'll take 500 pounds of balance to get it down. "I want a 10K." So I went, Okay, that's... I mean, that's Jim. So, I set up a test, in a little, in a stage stage right next to where I had my little shop. And we put a silk 50 feet away, and I had a nine light, I think I had a 2K, a 5K, andI had a 1200 HMI spun around and doused because I wanted it to be full speed because they'd take three or four minutes to come totally up.

Pete | And uh so, I have Jim over and I've got my little analog spectrum, a little bulb. And I say, Okay, my former partner. I said, okay, Richard, put on the... I think it was the 5K. Then he put on the 5 K and I put out the meter and it was like a five, six. Jim goes, See, that's what I want. That's it. I need that. I went, Oh, okay. I said, well, I got one more light to show you. I didn't want to show him any of the others because I knew what we were gonna build. Richard, can you flip around that 1200? When I said 1200, Jim looked at me like, He's going to kill me. I'm not kidding. [laughs]
Vance | I can imagine.

Pete | I think we have a spot. I think we were spot on that light. And when it spun around and I put my meter up, that needle buried itself. It was gone. Right into the overexposure. And so then Jim went, okay, maybe we'll do a 1200HMI. That's how it started.

Vance | Wow.

Vance | Do you have anything, sort of, umm on the drawing board that you can talk about that's uh exciting and new?

Pete | Well, there's a couple of things. Umm, we decided to look at an economy version of uh an LED light similar to the Sky panels. But really, actually, we're going to call it the Down & Dirty LED light because it is down and dirty. And it's a thin LED panel that we're going to put on a plate, and you'll see them...

Pete | And then we're going to fill it with Epoxy, clear Epoxy, and we've got a light. And they're pretty darn bright. RGB. And uh, it truly, by the seat of our pants. It's- it's pretty funny actually. I don't think there's any real machining that's been done on any of it. It's all cuts- band saw cuts and stuff.

Vance | Oh, wow.

Pete | It looks kind of finished. So you'll see.

Pete | And I'm also working on a huge DOD project with the Navy, uh building underwater housings for high-speed cameras. So that's really in our face right now, big time.

Nigel | Pete, it seems that you obviously have an enormous grasp of the physics of being underwater and all the rest of it. And after the recent Ocean Gate tragedy, I'm wondering if, from your um, your sitting room comfy chair, there's a number of things that you know that would have told you that this was a disaster waiting to happen.

Pete | Well, when you look at having a Game Boy console to run the dang thing, that's definitely a red flag for me. [laughs] Umm, it- I think the construction of fiber, uh carbon fiber, especially for those depths, you're looking at 6,000 PSI. That's a huge amount, pushing in on that at those depths. Um, so that- that was kid of scary for me, I looked at it as a hodgepodge because I've been in some other submersibles that are truly done to spec. I mean, the way that they were supposed to remove the weight their ballast was all the people to get up and roll the damn thing. I mean- I'm sorry, I'd have no faith in that whatsoever. And there was only one seat in the entire sub. And that was a dual-purpose seat. It was one to view and it was to also go to the bathroom.

Nigel | One to view and one to poo.

Pete | It was the same seat, though. And if you had to take care of business, they had a little curtain they pulled across and then they turned up the music so you could have your way and there you have it.

Nigel | one of my descriptions of the things that I do on this podcast is my job is to ask questions that other people are afraid to ask. So, [laughs] when you are in the middle, so you're, you know, you're amongst the sharks. You've got a James Bond actor, a very impatient director, uh, up above the surface, probably having a margarita while he's watching his monitor. And you've been under for half an hour, and suddenly you realize you shouldn't have had that extra cup of coffee before you went downstairs. And you need to pee. what is the protocol at that point during to shoot.
Pete | That's a 'don't ask, don't tell' kind of thing. [All laugh] Um, nobody wants to bring it up. Nobody will say it, um especially in a pool when you're in there for 10 hours. I mean, come on. Um, so pretty much you can figure it out. I'm not going to say it.

Nigel | [laughs] I'm sorry, you've joined the podcast. You have to communicate.

Pete | [Laughs] Oh Well. Yeah.

Nigel | All right. My job is complete. Back to you, Vance. [laugh]
 
Vance | So, in Mission Impossible five Rogue Nation, there's an underwater scene, which is pretty incredible for many reasons. Check it out on YouTube. Just search underwater scene. Mission Impossible Rogue Nation. Ethan Hunt, played by Tom Cruise has to break into a supercomputer that is underwater, he has to switch out a security card. So bench bay by Simon Pegg can access a secure facility. It's an incredible sequence that culminates in Lisa Faust played by Rebecca Ferguson, rescuing an unconscious Hunt. PETE, this scene has a lot of elements, starting with the previs to figure out what you should shoot, shoot, practically, I assume are involved in that point. At that point.

Pete | I was well involved with that. We didn't shoot that until December and then into January. And I was out in the UK in for the full month of August, doing testing camera moves, what rigs would work and all of that. So true to form with anything with Tom, the prep is instrumental in making everything work forward there.
 
 Vance | I mean, that's pretty great, right? I mean, to be able to go in and actually have that prep and be really buttoned up. I mean, that's certainly be really smart of him, I think,
 
Pete | Well, um you know, Tom is a can-do guy, as we all know, with his stunts, and he really does it. I have a lot of respect for him. [Vance: Yup] I think I've done 13 or 14 shows with him over the years.
Pete | he really knows what he's doing. He knows what he wants us to do. And he's quite verbal and quite nice about it. But he really is together. And I prefer that than somebody who's pretty wishy-washy and not knowing what the hell they want.
 
Vance | I've watched the behind the scenes to see you in action a little bit. Obviously there's the crane with the with the Hydra head on there. But then I see you handheld in a speed rail bucket flying around. [Pete: Yes,]

Pete | That was for following with Tom and I would follow the arc it was basically a dolly for all intents and purposes, but it was handheld just to give it a little bit more freedom and not be so controlled. We've added a little tension for Tom,

Vance | speaking of handheld, were you actually able to do more free hand work in the water with him.

Pete| Yes. in the opening of the sequence where Tom jumps in the tunnel and goes straight down. They needed to get some footage of that. So basically, they laid Tom down perfectly horizontal, straight away from from camera. And he was laying on a board. I don't know that he was strapped in, he might have had something to hold them there because they were blowing water on both sides to keep his hair flowing. And I would start my shot clean, and I just go right up his foot to his legs over and past his head. And I had to stay close, I had to get six, eight inches away. Moving about 300 pounds of gear. If I missed that, that's a bad day for Tom and probably a really bad day for me. And the reason we did that handheld is that everybody was afraid to do it with a crane, the crane, although it's very stable and stuff, the operators don't have a hands on idea of exactly where that camera is in relation to Tom. And they were using laser lights, following tape marks on the deck to try to hit their marks. I mean, that's kind of crazy. So they put the pressure on me and I kept on trying to get closer and closer to Tom's not whacking him but at least getting his face as we cross. we did the same thing for Rebecca also.
 
  Vance | So really They were in a fixed position and you created the movement with camera.
 
Pete | Correct That's the movie magic and where the visual effects come into, you know, because you just can't tell.

Vance | Yeah, no, it's really, it's really, really good. And uh...

Vance | You have a lot of green screen but you also had a practical practical set as well did you tend to work more in with that practical set and with just the green screen being background elements or deep background elements

Pete| that is correct and even that segment of the circle on left and right side of that was all green screen top green, I think it was green also below they were lighting it with fluorescents on the on the bottom tilted up towards the green and the set itself and that set was fully operational all the pieces and parts work so that we could get over Tom's shoulder for pulling things out doing the inserts but then they just extended it for doing the full circle

Vance | It was pretty, pretty cool setup. The, you know, once the current restarts, you know Rebecca Ferguson stops the current of the water flowing into this computer server, and then it stuff fires up again. And of course, one of the gags is Tom's on a line that pulls him away to show that he's been pushed by the current. But at the same time he's hair's pushed back you see his skin flexes as it would in a real current. And how did they create that?

Pete | He was going into the water movers just to keep that because we didn't have enough mobility to push in through it to give it that effect that he was fighting a current. So they had two hoses on either side just with water

Vance | And they were just pushing water

Pete | pushing water towards him

Vance | very cool I was thinking it was they had a couple of scooters there.

Pete |  Yeah, we do these scooters a lot. You know in 300 we use them for all their capes and everything because we couldn't keep them. We got to have them on opposing sides so it would go up on one side and then they drop and then we bring up the other side. So it gave it that unfurling [Vance: Oh really? thats cool.] So yeah, we use those a lot even with on the island with Scarlett. We had her on a rostrum pregnant with surface but we had, we had scooters, blowing her hair blowing her long, silky white dress and the whole thing was really pretty.
 
Vance | um you know, for a project like Rogue Nation, what sort of testing do you do um before a project when you need to do testing? Whether there's certain new anamorphic glass or whatever the case may be. Is there a testing protocol that you like to work through?

Pete | Well, on the smaller shows, no. It's basically I- most of the times I don't even get a prep day, just show up and shoot. Um, because it's pretty straightforward of what we're doing. If it's something that is entailing, something that's very complicated and safety-oriented, we'll get some time. Like on Call of the Wild, I think we played around for at least three or four days to get some of the shots. We're pulling our stunt girl through the ice, which was all fake ice, of course. [Vance: Yeah] Abyss was a lot of prep. Um Certainly Rogue Nation was a lot of prep. I was out there in August doing prep on that, and we didn't shoot it until November, December, so I went back and forth quite a bit, and that was part of the testing, was we were the first ones ever to touch the Alexa 65 and were the first ones to ever use it, ever, in production. And they gave me that one-off camera, and I stuck it in the water.
 
vance | wow!
 
Nigel | So, I'm used to doing above water shooting, uh and obviously, depending on what the project is, we go and do a location scout and we figure out, oh, uh this is supposed to be in the 15th century, and there's a power station in the background, so we better move around or build a tree or whatever. So, I presume you do some scouting. When you're shooting you know a Bond sequence or a Mission Impossible sequence, at what point do you say, you know what? Shooting in this piece of ocean is not going to work. We need to go into a pool with greater control. Is that a challenge for you, trying to bend production your way?

Pete |  I think especially today, if you have the right reasons for wanting to change that primarily being safety, primarily being the production schedule to get it done. Because if you're in open water, the cards are totally blown out. You have no idea. Wind is going to change, water is going to change, boat is going to swing, people are going to get seasick. So, to be able to convince them to go into a controlled environment, um safety is amazing. You can really control that, control the heat of the water, control the visibility of the water. It just makes so much more sense to do it in a situation like that.

Pete | And I haven't been open water for quite a while. Uh, trying to think, might be, quite honestly, Benjamin Button in the Virgin Islands. That was quite a while ago. Umm, so most of what I do is tanks or pools, and that's where I shine. That's where we know how to make shortcuts. When you have that uh blacking in the back of the pool or tank and you have a little turbidity in the water and you backlight it, you now have underwater infinity. You can be anywhere.

Pete | and that really plays into cheating that frame so much. Through all my experience at ILM in understanding effects and how we move things, I look at that rectangle as an amazing palette. And when you have no discernible background, you can Dutch, you can do all kinds of things that are not noticeable. But if you had to get an actor going from upper left to lower right through a diagonal, they're not going to make that.

Pete | Now, um here's a funny one. That is a cheat on uh The Life Aquatic. We shot that at Cinecittà in Rome, the best location I've ever had in my life. You can have Bora Bora. You can have Tahiti. I was staying two blocks from the Spanish Steps. You can't beat that. So there was one shot. That is the iconic shot for the silent world, and it's the Cousteau divers going descending with the magnesium flares. Matter of fact, I have a very large poster of that, which uh, beautiful Italian poster.

Pete | So they're descending just like that, going down. Now I have a ten foot tank. There's no way I'm going to get those guys going down like that, because there's no room to do it. So I got, I think, 20ft away from them and I was swimming parallel with them, but the camera was 90 degrees to the axis of our- of our path, so I was shooting them profile, but then I dutched the camera to point down, and I think it was point down. And as we're swimming along, their bubbles are tracing back. And you cannot tell we're doing that on a straight line. It looks like they are descending.

Pete | that's the fun of cheating the frame and having an understanding of what you can do with that. It's pretty wild.

Vance |  when I'm in the water, and I'm shooting animals, whatever, there's a place I get in my head, it becomes very zen. And, you know, when you're shooting, you want to be right in the middle of the breath, so you want to be neutral in the middle of the breath and getting in that zone and creating shots like you just spoke about. Do you get into this sort of very zen headspace? Is there a place you kind of go?

Pete | I do.

Vance | Moving through 3D world. It's really freaking cool. That's why I love about it.

Pete | It's three dimensional steadicam. We talk about balancing the housing so it's perfectly level, and it may be a pound or two negative, yeah, depending on how you like it. And then you don't have to grip it, you just finger touchum So, in that three-dimensional mode, I balance myself so that if I take a full breath, I'm going to rise. If I dump all my air, I'm dropping down. So, it's right in that middle. you can't really anticipate because you don't know what's going to happen with an actor in because they have no marks, they can't see, there's no air, all that crazy stuff. So, you have to make that shot happen for them um, to get the heck out of there. And um aving that ability to slide sideways, up and down, all over, move in, move out, that's the hook for me, oh my God.

Vance | It feels really cool though, right? When you're doing it.

Pete | It's amazing. I mean, 'cause you're looking at it and you feel the composition. I mean, can feel the balance [Vance: Yeah] and- and the energy. We're making specific parts to tell the story. [Vance: Right] And that needs to be precise. Um, so, it's not an "f/8 and be there." This is get in there and get the shot. [Vance: Yeah]

Pete | And um, a lot of times, you're probably in the same situation when you go to a shoot, sometimes- and they say, "How about two cameras?" And I go, [laughs] "Hmm, probably not, probably not." I said, "Here's the deal. You know, it's a tight area. So do you want two shots that kind of work, or do you want one shot that really works? Your choice." See, 'cause I'm a frame hog and I'm going to get in there and I'm going to do what I need to do to make that happen. Um, so, nine times out of ten, they're going to fold and give it to me, and I make the magic happen. And that's- that's what I love to do. That's why I still do it.

Vance | Yeah. I mean, Do you scuba dive for fun, or you're only do...

Pete | No, I'm done.

Vance | You're done?

Pete | No, You know, You got to think of how long ago it was. I started diving, and no I've been to some of the nicest places in the world, which are not the same anymore because of what's going on in the world. Umm, so no, I- you know, even if I had a weekend off in the Bahamas, I'd be on the beach reading a book.

Nigel | I think what's really interesting about what you've just been saying is that I'm watching my monitor, seeing the faces of three people who never intended to get into the business we're in, [Pete laughs] and we all somehow stumbled into it, or in your case, Pete, fell into it.

Pete | Yes.

Nigel | And it's- it's really intriguing to me on a life lesson kind of thing - how we get educated to do one thing, and we wound up doing something completely different.

Pete | I feel so lucky and so blessed that I was able to find this path because - I can't think of retiring. There's no such word. You know, as long as I can get up to the pool and jump in the water, I'm happy, I can do it. When I need a walker to get up to the edge of the pool, may be time to walk away.

Vance | I think we'll live a little bit, last a little bit longer doing this.

Pete | Yeah, your lips, God's ears.

Vance | So, Pete, thanks so much for joining us today. I so appreciate it. Um, look forward to uh seeing you at Hydraflex in the not too distant future.

Nigel | Vance has often told me about his pal who wears a rubber suit a lot. So I have a new perspective on you now. Thank you so much for joining us.

Pete | Well thank you. This has been great.

[music]

Vance   | Okay, G'day everyone, I wanted to share with you a few notes on what makes a good underwater cinematographer or camera operator. In case you are thinking this may be something for you to get into.

Vance | Firstly, you need a high level of scuba diving skills. When you have a cinema camera in your hands, your buoyancy control skills and diving skills are crucial. Smooth and accurate camera position and operation requires you to be able to have perfect control over your position in the water column at all times.

Vance  | You also need to be physically fit. You'll be spending long hours in the water, often with high physical exertion, especially if you're working in the ocean, which can also add the risk of decompression injury. 

Vance  | Leadership skills are important. In many cases, you are the expert on working in the water. So knowing how to guide and lead your team is not only important for the quality of work, but also the safety. Tank work with sets including underwater and topside lighting adds to the safety concerns and the complexity of running a team. Not to mention, you will be working closely with talent, they may not be particularly comfortable. And even though you will have safety divers in the water, you still need to be diligent. 
 
Vance  | Patience! Working in water is time consuming. And sometimes you're working with a production team that may not be used to working in water. You have to manage the time expectations. This requires patience and diplomacy on your part. Remember, you're part of a team and being collaborative will serve you well. 

Vance  | These are just a few things. But if you want to learn more and get into the technical aspects of shooting underwater, I periodically teach a workshop aimed for both professional and recreational shooters. This is a NAUI-sanctioned course, which I wrote. You can either do a one day classroom or the full course which includes a four hour pool session learning operating techniques, and a one day of ocean diving at casino point on Catalina Island, where you get to put it all together. My next class is coming up soon, beginning with the classroom on September the 30th at the Hydroflex facility in El Segundo, California. 
 
Vance  | I hope this was helpful, everyone. Thanks for listening
 
[music] 
 
Nigel | Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, thank you so much for listening to this episode of Two Stops Over. And we need questions. I know we've asked this before and you've not been paying attention and you've been very bad children. So now, in the next episode, I would like Vance and myself to have a really interesting question that you would like us to answer. And if you don't send us a question, teacher will be coming 'round and we're not responsible for the consequences. Vance over to you.

Vance | you can follow us on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook at Two Stops Over Podcast and you can leave us a direct message on Instagram with your question. we don't want to get Nigel upset Okay, so please follow up with us. Thank you.

Nigel | It's not about me. It's about teacher.