Deep Dark Secret, Back to Work, and the Guy That Did That Britney Video (w/ Guest Jonathan Silverman)

Nigel
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode 11 of our podcast. We've made it into double figures and to celebrate, we're going to interview Jonathan Silverman, who's a below the line agent and looks after a rather mischievous camera person that I know. Um, Vance, what have you got for us?

Vance
 today is we're also going to speak a little bit about Britney Spears' new memoir. you're mentioned in that and both you and I have worked together on one project with Britney. So that'll be an interesting segment,

Nigel
I think we should mention that Britney's book is called The Woman in Me. And not the woman in me, you understand, but that's the name of Britney's... I think you get the idea.

Vance
I was going to say, [Nigel laughs] I do like the heels you're wearing today. [vance laughs]


Nigel
how are you young man?

Vance
Uh, not too bad. I'm packing my bags and doing laundry, getting ready to head over to Poland for a few days at CamerImage

Nigel
Just promise me you'll bring me a cake back from Poland.

Vance
Well, I'm going to miss having you and Lindha with me um this year. Um It was rather fun last year when we were all together and it was a good time. And, you know, I'm only going for three days this year due to work commitments, but uh I'll make the most of those three days for sure.

Nigel
No, it was a wonderful trip. I really enjoyed myself and I'm so grateful that you invited me and still recovering from the shock of going all that way to give you an award and not going up on stage. [both laugh]

Vance
That was the funniest thing I was telling someone about that today. You remember Paul Rachman? [Nigel: Of course, of course. I exchanged emails with him this week] Oh I had lunch with Paul today and we were talking about the fact that uh they flew you all the way out to give me an award and then you didn't give me the award. But I did drag you up on stage regardless. So that was, we did make up for it a little bit.

Nigel
Very good. So I'm feeling a bit tired at the moment because I stayed up late last night to watch David Fincher's new movie, who we both know.

Vance
And how was it?

Nigel
Um, it's... Of course it's very well done as always [Vance: yup] uh with David. It's very clinical, which is my one comment about a lot of his films. But It's immaculately done and the lead character is very interesting. I've read a few reviews which say one common thing about him, which I'm not going to share because I think people should watch it. But the thing I loved about it is that the lead character is constantly doing these very technical things. To do with a web or his phone or getting access to various places.

And which is a great reflection on my knowledge of having spent time at a production company with David is that he was obviously a very technically astute person.

Vance
Well, I remember the days when I was a gaffer and uh David had hired me and had me figure out all these interesting little gags that he'd want to do. I mean, I was probably 26, 27 years old then, and how meticulous he was, and the depth of knowledge that he had at that age was pretty incredible.

Nigel
We'd be sitting in meetings and suddenly he'd go off on a rant about the uh you know, details of 7256. "Well, you can't use that for blah, blah" and all this detail. And, you know, I'm quite a busy filmmaker and all I know is 16 mil and 35 mil, you know, in terms of the emulsion level and blah, blah and what you can do with this. I mean, just extraordinary uh
technical detail, the knowledge that he had, which I greatly respected. But, um, you know, I just bumbled along in my own way and just, I would say to you, "we'll put film in the camera" and "are we ready?" and "can we go?" and you're making noises about depth of field and whatnot, which took me a long time to wrap my brain around.

Vance
you know that he worked with Industrial Light and Magic and was actually a camera assistant on uh Return of the Jedi on the visual effects side of things.

Nigel
I did not know that. [Vance: yeah...] I know he'd worked at ILM or, you know, through them and whatnot. But, it's very interesting how we all got into this business coming from, you know, every direction of the compass into it, [Vance: yup] And yet we still share this um artistic thing together, I think. But it's a great film. I suggest you watch it.

Nigel
It's very interesting because the lead character, you hear his voice a lot, but he doesn't say very much. It's a lot about what he thinks. So I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about it when you see it.

Vance
Yeah, I look forward to checking that out. Erik Messerschmidt, who shot it, is gonna be at CamerImage, so maybe I'll, if I run into him, I'll have a chat with him about how it went down.

Nigel
I think they're showing it at CameraImage, so you should uh, you should go and check it out. So you shot some stuff for Fincher, right?

Vance
Yeah, I did um, remember those Propaganda promos [Nigel: yup] that introduced, there was the printing press I think, and sort of the one at um City Hall, and then the little boy putting Propaganda posters up on the wall. Um, I shot those for him. mostly two days of Louma crane, which I was very, very nervous
I was still basically a gaffer and uh, the wheels, you know, [Nigel: oh right] no way, you know, I was doing the wheels so, you know, and I've got Fincher over my neck and I'm like, "oh my God, if I screw this up," but I pulled it off and uh those spots are like fifteen, twenty seconds, but they were really, really beautiful. And uh you know, that's just an example of, you know.

Vance
of how creative he is in composition and framing and subject matter. And, you know, getting to be able to light that and shoot that for him was pretty much a joy for sure.

Nigel
I'm going to share a deep dark secret. I was pretty pissed off when I saw them because somebody walked in and said, "oh, have you seen the Propaganda promos?" And I'm like, "what Propaganda promos?" And the theory was that we were all equal at the company, all six of us, and that they'd been storyboarded, approved, shot, budgeted, finished, completed, and gone out. And I knew nothing about it. I have to say, I did not take it well.
but I've kind of got over it now, but you've just ripped the band aid off an old wound by telling me that.

Vance
Oh my god. Yeah, it was brutal. I shot all night And then filthy dirty, had to go straight to LAX, get on a plane, if you remember, Eastern Airlines, which was just a wonderful, not very wonderful airline, to do a job in Miami. So yeah, that was a long, long, painful 36 hours.

Nigel
talking about long and painful, uh, the strike has come to an end. has been finished. So how do you feel about that?

Vance
I think, like most people that are behind the camera, utter relief. Um even for like commercial world, which I shoot a lot of these days, was I think 60% down in commercial production and plus you have all these feature DPs all available for work. So it got very competitive and kind of hurt everyone quite a bit.
People were losing their homes and you know, savings, livelihoods. It's been pretty rough on a lot of people, but and I think it was needed. And now everybody needs to get back to work.

Nigel
It's a different world. it brings up one of the new subjects in my lecture, which I'll be doing again on Tuesday. And one of the chapters in the new chapters I have is called Adapt or Die.

Vance
You better adapt. I mean, it's forever changing. And certainly in my job, if I don't pay attention to what's going on, I'm gonna get left behind. Um, you know, one of the concerns that most of the people behind the camera have is the length of days, you know, people working 15, 16 hour days, and, you know, by the time Friday comes, you're shooting nights, so you really don't get downtime.
You know, the last contract, the solution was to increase meal penalties. And that doesn't deter the long hours at all. Um, we get more money, but people want to have lives, not meal penalties, you know, and uh, you know our unions sort of cave pretty quickly, whereas SAG did not. And, you know, I think that that's the next thing. Hours need to be reduced.
But I think with now the extra money they have to pay SAG, they're gonna try and do 20-hour days now, who knows?

Nigel
I remember on one of the first movies I did, we were doing a horrendously long day, which by the way was not my decision, but that's another story. And in a very loud voice behind me, the dolly was sort of sitting behind me and I've got my monitor in front of me. I hear one of the grips saying to the other grip, "Hey Doug, can you send a photocopy of my picture to my wife? I think she's forgotten what I look like."

Vance
Yup! I think what comes into play a lot too is safety. I mean, your brain after 16 hours and you're doing this day after day after day after day, so you can save 20 days of shooting, 10 days of shooting, whatever it may be, um everybody's safety is compromised on top of the fact that nobody has lives um during production. And we all love what we do, but you know.

Nigel
Yeah, well, that's another chapter of my lecture on Tuesday is Safety On Set. Because I don't think they teach you that at film school.

Vance
They don't teach you much at film school worthwhile.


Vance
Nigel, last week you said something that was quite interesting. And you said, "well, like most things in life, it all comes back to Britney." Could you enlighten us on that?

Nigel
Well, as you know, I did some videos for Britney and, you and I shot one together, actually. [Vance: Yes we did] But I shot her first video, which has become, people tell me it's iconic. I don't think it's my remit to make a comment about where it's seen in culture. But um I always say that when I die, if I get an obituary, it will be one sentence long and it will say

Nigel
"the guy that did that Britney video is dead." [Vance laughs] So, yeah, I mean, I did that first video and she mentions it in the book, which is very nice of her and gives me a name check. And as she says, you know, the director was open to my ideas and...
The thing that was interesting about it is that I'd written in another idea which was rejected by the label. And then they said, "well, you should speak to Britney. She's got some ideas." And being a grumpy bloke, I, of course, was a bit offended that I was going to be taking notes from a 16 year old girl. And then you have a moment of clarity and you go, you know what? I never went to a school with girls in it. I was at an all boys school.
Especially 16 year old girls. So I have no idea what goes through their brain. And she's a 16 year old girl and she's made a song which will probably appeal to other 16 year old girls. So perhaps I should listen to her because she has a very good perspective on what her audience will like. So we got on the phone and she just said to me, I want to be in a school dancing with lots of cute boys. That was pretty much the brief. So I went from there and...
Yeah, it certainly seemed to hit a target. I've taken a lot of stick from it, subsequently, but I will be going into that in my own book in good time. Uh but I was lucky enough to then do three more videos with her. She was always an extremely hard worker, which I respected enormously. And uh was very easy to work with. Did you get that impression when we did Crazy together?

Vance
Yeah, I mean, I thought she was very professional and , she worked really hard and, she was definitely a pro and um you know, that job was a lot of fun to shoot and as challenging as it was with...
covering giant windows up in a power station that nearly destroyed my grip crew. Um, One thing I wanna, I think we should clean up here is there's the sort of the matte box falling off the camera story, which I wasn't involved with, but there's all been these silly rumors around about that aren't the real story. So why don't you tell us the real story for once and for all?


Nigel
So here's the real story. It's the oops I did it again video. And I think it was the third day of the shoot.

Nigel
And there's a scene where she lies on her back and she's looking up at the camera and we're prepping the shot and I'm, you know, looking at my notes or whatever. I'm not really concentrating on what's going on because they're setting up the lights and focus and blah, blah. And then suddenly I hear a yelp and I turn around and

The camera of course was right over Britney's head, probably six or seven feet above her and the mat box, which is quite a heavy device on a 35 mil camera and has got lots of bolts and things sticking out of it, had fallen off and hit her in the head. So luckily we had a medic on set. Uh, so he came rushing over and he said, "look, I think she's okay, but I think she should take an hour or two to just rest up and make sure we haven't given her a concussion or anything."

And it was very unfortunate. I mean, is making sure that the matte box is properly tied to the camera, my responsibility? No, but I am the director and I take responsibility for my crew. So it's something that should never have happened. By the end of the day, somebody in her family had put on the web that the entire camera crane had fallen upon her, which was not the case.

Uh, recently, about three years ago, there was an article in a very famous fashion magazine about what she was wearing during that shoot and mentioned that a light had fallen from the ceiling and hit her in the head, which was also inaccurate. And if, I can tell you, if a light had fallen from the ceiling of that studio, she would have died. I mean, you know, it was a 40-foot ceiling in that place.

So, yeah, lots of BS has been broadcast. I'm very open about it. I regret it. It should never have happened. I take responsibility for the actions of the people on my crew. And interestingly, I don't think I've ever worked with that camera assistant again. And after that video, I never worked with Britney again. Whether that incident was the cause of that or not, I don't know.

Nigel
But, once again, safety is paramount on the set and you have to keep your eyes open.

Vance
Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty rookie mistake, to be honest. You know, it happens, but isn't it amazing how it takes no time for these stories to turn into something that's not true.

Nigel
Yeah, I mean, I've fought the battle uphill to make sure that the true story is told. I've not made any attempt to wipe it under the carpet, or say it didn't happen. And in the incident I've just shared when it was commented on in a very, very famous fashion magazine, I rang the journalist and I said, "look, this is not true."

Nigel
and he told me where he got the information from, And it's the old story, you know, the lie is told on the front page of the newspaper and the retraction is buried at the bottom of page five. [Vance: of course] So, you know, um it happened, as I say, it should not have happened. I've made no attempt to hide the truth because I think it's useful for us all to know the story to make sure it doesn't happen on our sets. But uh I just wish the true story was told every time.


Vance
Let's go back to the very first video you shot with Britney. Was there a moment that you felt this is going to be big?

Nigel
Uh, I had absolutely no sense of how big it was going to be. I was very proud of the work. I remember we finished the video. I was trying to change production companies at the time and I went in to meet the head of a production company which I subsequently went to work for. And he said, "what have you got? What have you been up to?" And I had a three quarter of the cut with me. So he put it in his um three quarter inch player.

And halfway through the video, he hit eject and he's like, "Yeah, it's all right." And three days later it was released on MTV and the earth turned. you know, and Britney never had a day's peace since then. The moment I did share on my website was when we did, Oops!…I Did It Again. And for the very first moment that she came on the set, she was followed by MTV making of crew.

There was journalists, it was like 25 people following her within inches of her face on my set and I had a glimpse of her face and I was horrified. I mean, it was just awful. And it brought back for me a certain period in my life as a child, which was very damaging to me, and I was appalled and I went over, I dragged all these people away.

And I think it was a notice from the future of what was gonna happen for the next 10 years of her life. She could not do anything without these people following her. And it got to the point where those were the only people in her life that she knew. I believe she even started dating one of these photographers, you know. I mean, it's just a horrendous reflection on our society. And obviously it's a...

It's a byproduct of fame, of wanting to be famous. And if you're not famous, then you can't sell your music, but it's a very nasty relationship. And reminds me of the old phrase, which is "given the choice between wealth and fame, choose wealth every time."

Vance
Yeah, I- it's a really sad story. And, I've seen this happen in, you know, around other artists too. It's the people around them are trying to suck every dollar they can out of them to their own benefit without any concern or regard for the artists at all. It's all about how much money can we make out of this person. And they get taken down a very dark road and it's very, very sad.

Nigel
Yeah, there's a very deeply sad moment in the book where she says, you know, in the middle of her conservatorship, she's on $2,000 worth of expenses a month she's allowed to spend. as she says it, and these are my words, translation of her words is, you know, "I was so ill that I couldn't make a choice about what I bought, or what I did, or where I stayed, or how long I could have with my children. But interestingly, I was well enough to go on tour and make millions of dollars for the people who looked after me." One of whom was her father.

Vance
Yep, that's a lot of truth in that.

Nigel
I mean, it's a deeply sad story. Um, you know, I feel for that soul who she was, when I first worked with her, she was so electric. She was very professional for a 16 year old, very eager to work, bubbly, a lovely person, really lovely. And to just, you know, sit hundreds of miles away and watching this life be pressured and destroyed.

Vance
reminds me of, you know, back when I was a gaffer, I, I think Mark Plummer was the DP and we shot this little video in this tiny stage for this artist named Bobby Brown. He was the sweetest, nicest kid you could ever wish to meet. years down the road, I shot quite a few projects with him and what had happened to him um was incredibly sad, you know. Um where that sweet kid had gone. I think he's sort of out of that now, but man oh man, it was just horrible. And again, you could just see the people that surrounded him, uh how much they created that monster, you know?

Nigel
Well, I worked with Paul McCartney once, arguably one of the most famous people in the world. [Vance: mhmm] And I got a call from his manager, you know, can you speak to Paul? And I said, sure, you know, set up a time and I'll give you my number. He said, oh, he's in his car right now. Give him a ring. And he gave me Paul's cell phone number. And I'm like, "oh my God, who does this?"

And uh so I put the phone down and started dialing, shaking like a, you know like a super fan and got straight through to him in the car and Linda McCartney was still alive at the time. He said, "say hello to Linda." And he just, he had a process whereby he tried to live his life like a normal person as far as I could see it. And he obviously, he was in control of the people who were trying to control him.

And my theory about this is with many of the people I've worked with, the people who leave school and go straight into the pop business or fame business, whatever you want to call it, have a much different perspective than the people who went out and did a real job. The people I know who were, you know, worked in factories, pumped gas.

They're much more down to earth because they've had a real life before they became successful.

Vance
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, for sure.

Nigel
So on the subject of people who look after other people, um who's our guest today, Vance?

Vance
Well, today we have a gentleman by the name of Jonathan Silverman, who's actually one of the partners in the agency that represents me as a cinematographer. He's on the narrative uh feature/ TV side. one of his partners is Michael Kirschner, who is actually my kind of day-to-day agent for commercials and

a little bit of music video stuff that I still do. Um very interesting guy. Um, you know, I like him a lot and uh he's gonna enlighten us to the world that he has to deal with every day. And certainly with the SAG-AFTRA strike being over, he's gonna get very busy very quickly, I think.

Nigel
yeah, it's an interesting part of the business and I think it will be educational for people who are listening to find out how this gent helps you get a gig.

Vance
it's also the fact that you know, we're artists, creative people, and the last thing we wanna do is have conversations about uh how much are we gonna get paid and negotiating all those things. as well as, finding us work and supporting our careers, you know?


Nigel
And just for everybody out there in wireless land, um we'd like you to know that this conversation was recorded before the strike ended.

Vance
Our guest today is Jonathan Silverman, who is one of the founding partners of Intrinsic, an artist agency that represents cinematographers, production designers, costume designers, and editors, with offices in LA, London, and Warsaw. I'm excited for him to share some of his wisdom today. Oh, and by the way, he's my agent too. [laughs]

Jonathan
Hello, nice to meet everyone.

Vance
Nice to see you, Jonathan.

Nigel
Good to see you, Jonathan.

Vance
So this time last year, we were hanging out at CamerImage in Torun, Poland.

Jonathan
And you've been saying Image or Image? Becuse I feel like image makes you sound cooler

Vance
Um I say CamerImage. [Jonathan: Yeah.] Because it sounds cooler, it sounds much more French.

Jonathan
Sounds fancier? Yes, I like Image.

Vance
Yeah, camera image. I never I never was down with that. [Jonathan: Right] [laughs] But uh you know, you seem very comfortable there. Nigel and I, it was our first time but you looked right at home

Jonathan
It was like since 2006, through last year, 2022. You gotta do that math, is that 15 or 16? But the one year that I missed, everybody missed, was the 2020 one. I think it was a full virtual uh year, which was, it was just impossible. So I didn't even try that year.

Vance
So uh how did you find the festival in the first place?

Jonathan
You know, that's a good story. I was uh just had moved over to Endeavor at the time and started that department. I moved from Paradigm and uh, Kees Van Oostrum uh who was a client. Uh, And once president of the ASC for a few years, he was like, uh, "Jonathan, there's this festival and there's like, hundreds of amazing cinematographer, and nobody's there. And you got to come because I have a, I have a short film in it, and then you can hang out, and it'll be good for you."
And I'm like, "Ah, I go to Sundance, I go to Toronto, I don't need to go over, over to Poland." He's like, "You're crazy, man, you got to do it." So I did it. But I scheduled like all these other things. Like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go to London, then I'm gonna go to another city. And I'm just going to squeeze in like 72 hours to do this Polish film festival I'd never heard of. And then when I went there, and I saw, you know, in in Sundance, you got to stand in the snow. And you're lucky in a whole week if you meet two cinematographers that are relevant to your life. And just like Kees said, I was just standing in a, you know, around all these amazing cinematographers.
So I'm like, Yeah, this is insane. Uh, why didn't I think of this? Why did I have to Kees tell me about it? But so it was an amazing first year 2006, which I think was like the eighth or ninth year of the festival. So it had grown a bit, but it wasn't as big as it is now. And um once I went that set it off because other agents had gone before, um but they didn't go consistently. I heard, like, you know, somebody went once for a lifetime award. But then after that, I said, I'm gonna go there and sit there like a Sphinx, and like, just post up. And then all the agents started sending one, two, three, all the agencies four, five agent contingents. And it, it really set it off. And I don't know the festival likes that. But, I remember my first year they're like, oh agents hanging around. This is ruining the vibe. Well, now they got [Nigel laughs] now they got like, they got like, 60 agents hanging around. And it's my fault, because I set it off back in the day. Yeah.

Vance
Yeah. Well, obviously, you're uh looking for DPs when you're there, right?

Jonathan
Yeah, but that's the thing. If you were, could you imagine if there was an actor festival where there was no barriers between the stars and agents? You know, you know, when you're at Cannes there's a million barriers to get to that, you know, but yeah, this is one of the few festivals like that if it ever became super VIP like Sundance, or Cannes, or Toronto. It would, it would kill the vibe. Then I would be done.

Vance
It's a great vibe, and you know. I'm heading back this year. I'm doing a underwater cinematography workshop while I'm there, and uh are you going to be there?

Jonathan
I'm doing an agent panel, which they have me host for the last like seven or eight years, um which is very nice of them. And then there's different other agents on the panel every year, but I get to be the, you know, the proverbial uh guest host, I guess every year. So it's nice.

Nigel
So Jonathan, um lots of people asked me, um especially people from out of town, "Uh I'm coming to LA, what should I do? You know, I want to be, you know, a cinematographer or an actor or director or whatever." And what I say to them is, "the first thing you do when you arrive in LA, is you get an agent. And the second thing you do is you pretend you don't have one." [Jonathan laughs] What's your I mean, [Jonathan: I like that, I've never heard that before.] As that's my advice, have I've been telling people a big lie? Or Would you agree with that concept?

Jonathan
I think it's not a lie, if you have something going on, in other words, you are a viable artist in your home country or home wherever, before you come here. And you're somewhat known, you know, in the United States. But if nobody knows who you are, you can say you want an agent, but I don't know if you're gonna get anybody viable. That's the first part. But um the second part, pretend you don't have an agent. Yeah. Um I don't know if I like that one. But yeah, I guess that's smart strategy. [laughs]

Nigel
I mean, it's hustle. You know, you've got to go around, shake hands, yeah

Jonathan
Oh, now I understand, yeah. Never give up doing your own press, and your own, and your own schmoozing, as we say, and I agree with that. It's like, don't sit back and pretend that it's all going to happen with just this one person, or two people who's ever on your team. I always say like, when an agent scores a uh project for somebody, sometimes it's 60/40 in our direction, where 60% of that work was us, but you got, you call the, Vance knows the AD. Uh I know the uh producer, and it was a combination, or sometimes it's 60/40 your way,  You never know which way that's going to come out. But yes, you should never stop doing your own thing. Ever.


Vance
how did you get started in this industry? And did you want to be an agent? Or is this something that kind of evolved for you?

Jonathan
You know, not when I was a kid. I don't think I knew. I mean, I guess I've heard of it. Um, but the, the want of being in Hollywood started with my father. Um in the 70s When I was a kid, uh not trying to age anybody out, my mother wouldn't go to the movies with my father. Like, she was like, you know, "Jaws. It's too scary. You know, that's too intense. I just won't like it." So she kind of waited for HBO to be invented. But before then, I don't know how she saw movies or maybe VHS. So my dad liked to see the movies on the first run. So I became his little movie buddy. And he thought you know, it's good to take my third grader to Jaws and my you know, to network and to Godfather 2. But I remember sitting in the seat and seeing Jaws, Animal House, you know, whether it was comedy, whether it was drama, and that, watching the big screen that was the first kind of love affair with the movie business or the, the Hollywood business. But my father never made it as an artist. Um and I never wanted to be an artist but it got that thought in my head. I wanted to be a part of it in some way.
So my dad was the old um song and dance man. He was like, Jason Alexander type. I'm really tall for Jewish guy but my, my dad was like shorter, stockier, but he could, in the old days you had to sing, dance and act if you want it to be in Hollywood. But you couldn't just be, now you're lucky if you can do one of the three, they could all sing, dance... And he could do it all. And he was a professional trumpet player with the big bands by 13 years old. But by the time he was like, 30 something he was a jack of all trades, including a rock'n'roll manager. He did that too. Uh he had a number like seven song with some 50s singer, and it made them like 100 grand, they reinvested the money, and then they lost it all on the second album, it's all these kinds of stories. And then he just joined my grandfather's uh business, the family business, and uh that kind of ended his career. But he always had that, that longing. And I kind of felt that as a kid. So that set it off. But it wasn't till I got out here, and sorry about the long answer, 'till I met some kids that were working at agencies. Kids, because we were all kids in our 20s. it just reminded me of like, being in a some kind of a group that they all look cool. They, you know, they had great parties, I was like, that might be something for me.
So that kind of set it off. Maybe my first six months out here. Uh, I met kids like that. But that wasn't my first job. My actual first job was working on music videos as a PA. [Vance & Nigel laugh] I did six months. And it was, I remember must have been summer because I think I sweated through every t-shirt and jeans that I had and what I learned from that, I appreciate how hard you all work. But I also learned that it wasn't for me, like being out in an alley downtown, cleaning up the alley and doing the smoke, and wetting it down with the water, you know, like make it look wet. And then I realized like, I need to get in an office. So that also steered me towards the business side. Well, that was being a PA I guess it's business. But I wanted to be on on this side, after that.

Nigel
You suddenly learned that you weren't going to fabulous restaurants for lunch with people with an expense account.

Jonathan
No. I did get to bring Sting a coffee though. That was very good.

Nigel
Oh very good! He's a good man. We've I've worked with Sting. Um, so what's the common misconception about what you do as an agent, do you think?

Jonathan
I think the misconception is what you alluded to a little bit, that people think they're gonna just get that first agent. And then magic is going to happen. It does happen like that sometimes. Sometimes it's beginner's luck, or you're just right person, right time, right place. But I think the truth is, it's a uh, it's a marathon. And if you find an agent you click with, and you can stick with, who can be there for you in the ups and the downs, it's pretty special. And, you know, I know people don't always stay together forever. But if you're the kind of person that's like, oh, after 18 months, I want to move on, move on, move on, and you're at four agencies in six years, it's probably not going to get to help you, you gotta... the agent really has to vibe with you, and you vibe with them. And then all of a sudden, at some point, you get on a roll. And when a roll happens, there's nothing like it when you can help an artist move up that hill, you know, whether they're starting at the middle to the top, or the bottom to the middle. When you start to see the momentum. It's uh very exciting when when they go from an outgoing call to an incoming call. That's exciting when you help that process. Yeah.

Vance
you started the physical production department, below the line, at Endeavor. You, you tell me a bit about that story? Then I think that kind of sort of eventually led you to starting your own agency.

Jonathan
Well, first it was paradigm which was a uh, sort of like number six agency in the business, I think. Endeavor was number two at the time, behind CAA. And uh, so I was kind of one of the youngest kids to start a department. I think I started Paradigm at like, co-started it at the time, but still started at uh, I want to say I was I don't remember exactly. Maybe 32, which is young for a department head, and by the time I, I was there for like four or five years, and when I started at Endeavor, they didn't have a department. So they wanted to launch it with somebody that's experienced launching a department. So I think I was like 37, 38. it was it was exciting but scary being the top dog at a young age because you're competing against these other agencies that the head of their department's been there for 25 years. You're like I was in grade school when you started. Um, but uh it was exciting because at the time Endeavor was more like this hot, uh cool place. It was big. But it wasn't, monstrously big. So um, somebody had heard about me, and it's one of those things they recruit you. And you know, it was like six months of meetings quietly, and then everybody decided, let's do it. So I did it.


Nigel
So um, I was represented by an agency, which you've just mentioned a couple of times. [Jonathan: yeah] And when they fired me, they rang me up. And they said uh, "You're such a nice and talented person, we think you should be represented by somebody else." Which was an interesting way of doing it, because it sort of tended to suggest that they only represented untalented assholes. [Jonathan laughs] So my question for you, uh for future people who might be entering this industry is, if you had to fire a client, how would you do it?

Jonathan
Well I think they're trying to be nice, but uh that was their spin on it. But uh I think nice is the best way. But for me, if we're not, gelling is one reason, or if we're not doing any projects together, at some point, I would be honest, and just say, "Hey, maybe you're not the right client for me, and maybe I'm not the right agent for you. I'm not being mean, here, I'm just saying is, let's look at our track record." if you're not on a roll, if it's dry as a desert for years, I don't know if that's such a bad thing. It's like, let's just, let's just be friends and look at what's happening here.
But I can tell you this, the um, you know, one of the exciting things about being at Intrinsic and starting something, and it was very small. It's just me and my other partner, Dana Salston. And now we're four partners. And we have London and we have Warsaw, but in LA, four partners, so it's still small, but it's growing, but compared to Paradigm, or compared to having hundreds of agents around you. Um, at the giant places, you're stuck in meetings all the time. I mean, I remember you call up, you're like they're in a meeting, they're in a meeting, they're in a meeting.
It's like you had meetings about meetings. Like literally, I'm not even kidding, you had a meeting about discussing what we're gonna do in the next meeting. and it would drive you crazy, it would drive the clients crazy. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. They gotta strategize, whatever. I'm just saying is there comes a point in your life where it's really nice to be the master of your own fate. And your clients' fate. And I can dedicate as much time as I want to my clients, as I need to,
I mean, when I was running the big place at some point, I really felt like, you know, I don't really know half the clients. I mean, I could pretend I did. And of course that's what they all do, but  the old saying was just take care of the top 25% of the list. And don't worry about the other 75 'cause they'll come, they'll go, just make sure the top 25% is happy. And um that's what they did.  they still do it. Uh, nothing wrong, that's their business model. But there came that time I want to pay attention to everybody on my list, from the most popular name at the moment, to the most up and coming name. I want everybody to be important to me, and uh it's just a different time in your life. And you know, the weird thing is, when you're at a boutique, if you have a decent list, you don't need the 4,000 clients, because you don't have the giant buildings and the giant whatever's to pay for. So economically, it's not a big difference. It's just a little less, maybe flash, but uh I think my clients dig get because we talk a hell of a lot more.

Vance
as a client of yours, and uh, Michael, one of your partners, I cannot be happier. And the fact that it is this way, is hugely valuable.

Jonathan
Yeah, Michael just came over from an agency, I don't have to say the name, but medium to big, pretty big. And um, you know, he probably could have stayed there for a long time. He's a young guy coming up. But I think he really got psyched about the opportunity to be a part of something and be an owner at a young age. I mean, he's younger than me, believe it or not, but uh you know, there comes that point where you don't want to be a cog in the machine.

Vance
You know, Jonathan, the industry has changed a lot over the years. I imagine the process for getting jobs for clients has changed over the years. Um, how is that shift? And how is it changed for you?

Jonathan
it's really weird how you change hats like when I was training at the old William Morris, People call WME 'William Morris,' but when I say William Morris, I think of the old William Morris, because that's WME. And the old William Morris was the 100 year old agency, it was like, classic Coke. Uh, I was trained to be a director's agent in television, which is really weird. And then I wound up becoming a feature below the line agent. that was my world, I might do one or two television deals a year. And now I'm getting to my point, one of the big changes was the massive explosion of cable. And then the second explosion of streaming, which created this universe where truly 70% of the jobs were on this side of the business and features which was my whole world 20 something years ago just kept shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. Uh, my first love is always features. But, we're a business and at some point, you started to move, you know, a lot of your time away from the classic studios and moving into the HBOs, and into the Showtimes, and into the Netflix's and I mean, it's no secret the minute like Meryl Streep, and all these actors showed up on television.
And these massive DPs, or if you look right now at CamerImage and you look at the television um nominees, which I'm not saying I was the first one but I was one of the first ones who suggested they do an award because I'm like, How can you ignore this? Doesn't have to be the main award, but how can you not have one award for this huge amount of business? I think I saw, I looked at this morning, I think one was Sal Totino and another one was some other very, very massive DP. I've never talked to Sal or repped him, but I'm saying, if Sal Totino, who's an amazing name is doing it. And Meryl Streep is doing it. What does that tell you? So I think that's one of the most massive shifts in agents' thinking and you know what they say the strike right now might be the end of the Golden Age. Nigel, the the golden that were telling you as a kid, the last golden age, was the 70s. That was the last, Scorsese. And you know, Coppola. And why am I forgetting? [Vance: Spielberg? Lucas?] No um, The Deer Hunter?

Nigel
Cimino

Jonathan
Cimino! And then they say like, it was over like, And then they're saying, maybe from 2000- I really feel like the Sopranos set off the the beginning of high end television. But There weren't a lot of other options. but then maybe around 2008, 9, 10, it started to move. And then about 2012, I would say the last six or seven years. Besides the COVID year, it was massive. And it could be it could be over. I'm not saying, it's there's gonna be no television. But I don't know if that golden age is gonna return with not just the quality, but some of the money that they're putting into some of these shows is mind-blowing, I think I'm lucky I got to watch the uh golden age of features on the screen and my dad and I got to live through this golden age, you know, and I read a lot of, I'm uh kind of nerdy on history, I like Hollywood history. And they say oh, the- Hollywood was- was over in the 60s. You know the studios are dying and when is only a matter of time before it was gone. And then, you know, the 70s all the, all the rebel directors, okay, it was reinvented. But it always feels like you're saying it's the end, it's the end, it's the end as we know it. But I feel like whether it's features or television, there's gonna be something we're not thinking of, that cinematographers are going to be doing, and directors are gonna be doing it five or seven years, and it'll be the golden age of that. I'm ready until I'm done. I'm ready for the next thing. I'm not saying these things are over. I'm just saying, I feel like Hollywood will always reinvent itself at some point.

Nigel
I was up for a movie. During the last, I guess the last writer's strike, I can't remember. Anyway, it started, the budget started creeping up and it was going to be 15 million bucks, [Jonathan: Right] By the way, I never got to do this movie, but... And the issue that when the movie just fell flat on its face, and didn't go any further is that it was explained to me. Now you've got a $15 million movie, then they're now going to have to spend the 50 million bucks on [Jonathan: Advertising...] prints and advertising and distribution and blah, blah, blah. And so your actors that you've got in this 15 million bucks movie are not big enough to justify that. So it was too big to be a small movie and too small to be a big movie. And it just fell into this dirty grey hole in the middle. So I I was speaking to somebody on the phone yesterday whose son uh produced um the movie last year that came out with the oh my god, I forgotten the name. Anyway, horror movie, which costs 10 million bucks to make, and it's made $150 million. It was the movie with the doll. The girl is the doll. [Jonathan: Oh, yeah, yeah yeah]

Nigel
Anyway, the point is, is that that's the ideal situation you want to be in if you're a businessman. And, and it's like shutting your eyes and throwing a dart at a dartboard

Jonathan
It is, I mean, I don't necessarily think they know that, when Get Out was made for $5 million, it was gonna make 100 million plus, if they knew that, if anybody actually, I mean, I think they knew they had something special, but they are throwing darts. But in my opinion, we're making art for the ages. We all want to make money, but we're making art and if a studio or mini major that we're saying is invented that makes these kinds of movies, if they can break even and make a little profit, is so horrible, does it all have to be enormous profits, but nothing for the soul? I'm not trying to be a purist. I mean, trust me, I would put a person on a Marvel movie in a second, be enjoyable to have them on it make that money, you know, But, there's got to be the other side too. and I think maybe that moved to television, or what we call television- streaming. I think maybe these dramas are there, the Ozarks and, and uh, you know, whatever show you like, Succession. I don't have anybody on Succession. I have no dog in that hunt. It's a great show, though. And uh maybe that's where these uh pure acting projects have gone.

Vance
you have to manage a lot of personalities as an agent, obviously, you're dealing with your artists, and then you've got producers that you've also got to negotiate, you know, rates with and, you know, that can be a battle at times. How do you approach it, so you can stay on good terms with everyone?

Jonathan
Sometimes it's impossible, but you want to 90 plus percent of time, for it to be possible, Sometimes you have to be the bad guy or gal to get what your client needs. you know, some agents or agencies will never go up against the company hiring because they're worried about the future. they're worried about, like my clients, not more important than my relationship to this company. But I feel that there's a real happy medium where sometimes you have to do that battle, even if it cost you to be in the doghouse a little bit. You know, I don't try to be in the doghouse with any major company forever.
But maybe I'm in the doghouse for a little while, and then they'll come back around and go, "you know, Jonathan's just fighting for his clients, we understand." But most of the time, you want to get what you want, what your client wants or needs. But in a way that leaves a good taste in their mouth, and there's like a really nuanced way of doing it. And uh I can't exactly explain it, but there's agents that are better at it. And agents that are not so good at it. And I want to think that I'm on the better side of that, but I'm not perfect. Yeah, you get in some famous battles over the years. [laughs] you know
A few people out there, they're like, "oh, I don't know," then what you do is when they call back in again, you move it to the other agent, because you're like, that person does not want to talk to me, and then maybe have the other agent handle it. but over time, I think people really appreciate what you do. And the funny thing is, is that a lot of these producers wind up getting an agent themselves. So why don't they want it for their cinematographer. it does bother me sometimes when when producers are like, "well, I already know your client. Like I know them. I know them" Okay, great. Yeah.
Like this is professional representation. just because your friends doesn't mean they shouldn't have somebody... it's very hard. And I'm not so good at it myself. Doing your own deal. People don't like to talk about themselves a third person, "Jonathan this, Jonathan is..." it's weird. And negotiating for yourself can be weird. And um yeah, I don't like when producers feel they can go direct to the client, not direct on the read the script, that's fine. Or meet on this. That's fine. but when they start to bring up numbers without going through the agent, I don't care if you're the top movie star or you're the most up and coming crew member.
I think it's disrespectful to the artists, and disrespectful to the agent to talk numbers before it's time to talk numbers. I think talking art and talking meeting is fine. If you have a prior relationship. I don't expect everything to go through me if you're a producer, or if Nigel says "Vance, read the script." You're reading it, but I think when it was deal time, Nigel would say "hey, I'm gonna have the producer called Jonathan because I know you're represented by Jonathan to do a proper deal." And I think that's just being respectful.

Vance
I agree, and you know I don't want to talk about money. I wanna talk about the art and the project

Jonathan 
Yeah. It also hurts your relationship with your artists friends, talking about money. [Vance: Yeah. Don't wanna do it.]

Jonathan 
Did you have an agent on your first gig Vance?

Vance 
Nope. Lisa Hollingshead, the producer, would tell me how much I'm earning and that was it and I'd be very grateful because I'm getting to shoot.

Jonathan 
Who was the first agent that called you? Do you remember that? That said, "hey Vance, you should be a client."

Vance 
Uh actually uh, Devin Mann when he was at _____.

Jonathan
Well he was the first but there was nobody before that? [Vance: uh....]

Vance
Well no actually yeah, Walter Partos very early.

Jonathan
You know, it's interesting. Uh, when is the right time? And I always say the right time is if your cell phone starts ringing, and you're doing all this art, and two or three different agents are calling you and they're, it's probably means it's the right time because you've done something special. and uh people are starting to notice. I think when I don't know why we're getting on this subject, I just I just went off the deep end. But I think when people are um, are uh just coming out, they come out too early. And you don't want to push yourself on anybody. You don't want to be a favor client. Like um somebody, I'm not going to say the name that I helped really move along. They went to another place that I don't think really wanted them at the time. But they were a favor to a bigger client. Take my friend. And I think that's a mistake to go in because you're friends with another client. And they're doing it as a favor. I think you really want them to be excited about what you're doing.

Vance 
Yeah, I agree. I agree.


Nigel 
So tell me we're in the middle of this two horrible strikes. One's over, but the other ones still going. How have you been surviving during that? What have you been doing?

Jonathan 
A lot of yard work. [Nigel laughs]
There is like, in the deep heart of it somewhere like in August, late August, early September, you get to that point where it's just so deep into the abyss. There's no calls coming in, you know, you've done the yard work. You've done every errand you can think of. I sort of went on the internet and went down a rabbit hole, I told Lindha about this. I got into this thing called reaction videos. Have you watch reaction videos? [Vance: No I haven't] So you guys are gonna be in for a treat, because you guys made history, obviously with these amazing Guns N Roses video, which is part of it. But there's a whole online, like, culture of people just watching classic videos, or watching classic movies, and classic TV series. And you watch people watching it. And you're like, why is that interesting? I don't know.
But it is. I started going down the rabbit hole and I was listening to people watching old Zeppelin videos from the 70s and that was cool. They're learning about Zeppelin, but then I'm watching the stuff that influenced me. I'm an 80s kid. So Guns N Roses was one of my, you know, top four bands, you know of that era when I was in college. It was mind blowing. And you're watching young people, sometimes older people, but mostly young people. They've never heard of Guns N Roses.
And they're watching Axl, young Axl, do his thing for the first time. And I'm watching through their eyes. I remember when Welcome to the Jungle came on MTV the first time. I was in college. And you know, you're watching all these other kinds of bands. And when I first saw it, I was like, What the... eff is this? I mean, now maybe it's not so crazy, but at the time, it felt like wild and different. So I was telling Lindha, one of the most popular videos of all time that people love to do reactions to is Sweet Child of Mine, they love it, it might be in the top 10 of all the like hundreds of reactions. And you watch all these different age groups and cultures, watching it and experiencing it. And it's a kind of became a strike hobby of mine.
I mean, I gotta get back to work now and give up. But reaction videos. it can be interesting. you guys are part of it. You're part of this culture by creating this.

Vance
I gotta check it out. That sounds cool.

Nigel
we've ruined millions of lives.

Jonathan
Yeah, but what you're doing is it's creating new age groups of fans for that work and that music. I don't want rock to die. And I want people to rediscover it. And maybe it will influence some 20 year olds to create a new band that we can all be in awe of, you know, like, hopefully there is another, era of the great rock band. I don't know, but I'm hoping.

Vance
Certainly hope so, it's been missing for a while, unfortunately. So reaction videos after that and uh SAG-AFTRA get back to work. How do you think it's going to pick up once they uh sign on the dotted line?

Jonathan 
I think it's like if you ever been to the track to the horse race, you know. Um when I was a kid, I went with my dad a couple of times, when they open the gate, and the horses jump out of the gate, it's gonna be like that. It's gonna go from zero to 100 in like three days. And it's going to be fast and furious. No pun intended to the million movies of that title. Um for about, my guess is going to be like six weeks of craziness.
And uh then it's gonna go quiet. it's gonna be musical chairs for these jobs, blah, blah, blah, whether it's actor, director, writer, crew members. And then it's gonna go quiet because they're gonna fill up that chunk of production and then it'll be quiet for about three or four months, and then the next wave will come. right now it's just trickling, But I do expect production to be down about 20, 25% from last year because of the new corporate models, the way they're- they're slicing and dicing the executives and you can see cancellation of projects.
it's kind of like you know when World War Two, I wasn't alive, but what I read in the history books is like those last week, so it's over, the war's over, you know, yeah! Back to living life, you know, when we get to that final three or four days, I think me and all my competitors are going to be, you know, chomping at the bit, you know, to be there for their clients. And I think the clients are gonna be chomping at the bit to get an opportunity.
And it's gonna be exciting because, you know, whether you're an artist, or you're a business person, not working for this amount of time, when you still feel like you have something to offer is uhhhh not fun, and it's not healthy. And I know strikes can be necessary for certain reasons, I'm not against people standing up for themselves. But I think clients and artists are much happier when there's an ecosystem that is alive and versus is frozen in stasis, as it's been for what? May was the beginning of the strike, but really, since late February, early March, the studios knew it was coming, so they shut everything down early.
So I would say really March 1st, around, so what are we? so that's seven months now. so it's crazy. I mean, this is the longest since 1960. Uh, you know, it's enough already, I think.
But um in the end, I just, want to help clients, not just make money, because that's only part of it. the most exciting thing , about being an agent is when you, look back in the last 20 years, and you look at those 6, 12, 15 projects, and you go, I was part of that, you know, I help so and so get that and it made film or television history, when you're with your client at, whether it's a festival and their name finally comes up on the screen and you look at each other like hey, we did it. That's the best feeling in the world. And I think we all want to get back to that feeling.

Vance 
Hey, look, you know, I've been doing this like 37 years and I gotta say that I love what I do probably more than any point in my career and to be actually to be able to get in the world and do that and not be gardening or just SCUBA diving

Jonathan 
or a reaction videos.

Vance 
Yeah, would be, really exciting. I can't wait

Jonathan 
yeah, like the reaction videos, but happy to give them up to do the day job.
And I think the clients like Vance, you're itching to open that lens. That's what DPs always tell me. like you said, Vance, it's like when people get upset on their shows. I tried to remind them I said, like, what a job you have, you know, Nigel, what a job you have. it does get shitty sometimes where you're bummed, for whatever reason, because the location sucks, or the producer sucks, or the actors being a pain, or something's annoying. But I always try to remind my clients like, hey, what other jobs could we be doing?
 I try to remind everybody like why we're here. Because we all had that dream, whether it was our father and mother or it was just yourself when you were a young kid, something sparked you. [Vance: yeah] And now you're living it, right? And uh, let's live it as long as we can. 'til we can't do any more.


Nigel 
Jonathan, it was fantastic meeting you and listening to you and hopefully our listeners will be able to take away some great pieces of information. Thank you so much

Jonathan 
Thank you guys

Vance 
I'll see you at CamerImage, yeah! Um Thanks for doing this, Jonathan. I really appreciate it's like really good to hear some insight from you and your experiences.

Nigel 
Travel safe guys.

Nigel 
Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached the end of our show. Thank you very much for listening, but you have been very bad and you have not sent us ideas for upcoming shows. You have not sent us questions that we can put on the show. And if you don't respond with questions and ideas, you will be slapped. I will hold you down and Vance will do the slapping. Now Vance has got some final words for us, which are...

Vance 
Well, um to avoid any slapping, I think you needed to leave us a great review at Apple Podcasts. And you also need to follow us at Two Stops Over Podcast on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook. So think about that, get it done, avoid a spanking. Now.