Acting Person, Little Slivers of Light, and Win It in the Room (w/ guest Alan Blumenfeld)

Nigel
Ladies and gentlemen, it is 2024. Welcome to the first 2024 broadcast of Two Stops Over. we have a fantastic guest with us today. Alan Blumenfeld, who was in a movie I directed, a lovely man, and as I said, he's an actor. This is gonna be the first time we've had a guest on the show who can actually demonstrate his art to us during the broadcast.

Vance
And we're going to chat a bit about what movies we've been watching, the upcoming ASC Awards and the addition of a new category. We're also going to chat about what makes an A-list actor, in our minds anyway. And Nigel has a bonus story after the interview involving a Harrier jet.

Nigel
So- what movies have you seen? It's January, it's awards season. What- what's on your list?

Vance
Well, I saw Poor Things, which I loved. American Fiction, which I also liked a lot. There was Asteroid City. Iron Claw, I've checked that out. Saltburn... I don't quite understand uh all the excitement about that, but that's just me. But some interesting and well-deserved nominations for the ASC Awards, which was very cool.


Nigel
which movies are in the ASC listing?

Vance
Well, we have Ed Lachman um nomination for El Conde, which we actually saw in New York at the um post facility, in the soundstage where they actually , did the sound mix for the film. Um Ed was there. It was a very beautiful film, um certainly visually, and uh it was actually shot on

Black and White Alexa. [Nigel: wow] and the whole film's uh in beautiful black and white. It's a very interesting film and everyone should go out and check it out. Um, Then there's Matthew Libatique for uh Maestro. Matty is an amazing cinematographer and I think his work on this is stunning. It was shot on film both in black and white and color.

very beautifully executed, the black and white, very much felt like a period black and white with um a beautiful grain and all that goes with that. And then transitioning into the color world felt like a slightly muted Kodachrome. And it really felt like you're in the era. It was uh very beautiful work and certainly framing, camera moves, light, everything was uh pretty stunning, I thought.

Um, next we have um Rodrigo Prieto ASC for uh Killers of the Flower Moon. That was on Apple TV, another beautiful looking film. Robbie Ryan for Poor Things. Uh Very, very interesting film on multiple levels, I thought. Production design, um cinematography, acting performances, costume design. Um All around a very beautiful film.

And of course, um Hoyte Van Hoytema, ASC, FN- FSF and NSC for Oppenheimer. All again shot on film, great chunk of it shot on IMAX. Um They also had uh 65 millimeter black and white film custom made to shoot the black and white sequences in this film, which was...

Vance
a pretty big deal, I think. So another, another amazing piece of work. I think uh there's uh definitely, it's gonna be a tough call, which is Best Cinematography this year, that's for sure.

Nigel
I was going to interrupt you and talk about Maestro, [Vance: oh yeah!] which I agree looks absolutely stunning. I think it's a tour de force visually, no question. And I was incredibly disappointed by it, I have to say, because the story just wasn't there, frankly. Um, Obviously, I think it's an interesting tale about a man who was battling his sexuality in an era where that was not something that you could do in public.


Nigel
But I just wanted a beginning, a middle, and an end, and it was like a very long middle for me. And uh the only moment of resonance I had was the scene towards the end where he uh performs, I think it's a Mahler, in Ely Cathedral, which is where I once as a young- a young boy sang the solo for once in Royal David's City. So, you know, it was like

wow, me and Leonard Bernstein, we've both stood on the same spot, you know. [Vance laughs] But unfortunately that- I don't think that is a great sales point, you know, Nigel Dick and Leonard Bernstein in the same place.

Um, Killers of the Flower Moon, I thought was lovely, but again, the story just did not do it for me at all. My, my good movies of the year, my favorites, which I voted for as part of I'm a member of the DGA.


Nigel
The Holdovers, I mean, to be honest, quite unremarkable from a uh cinematography perspective, but a great story. Um Ditto American Fiction, which I loved.

Vance
Yeah, I love that film too.

Nigel
I loved Napoleon, which nobody's voting for in any category in any of the departments.

Um Barbie, I thought, was very

Nigel
very worthwhile and really surprising. And my big surprise was, Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret. Um which is, you know, I'm not familiar with the books at all because I was not brought up in this country. Beautifully done, a great story and featuring an amazing performance by a young girl, I suppose, or young lady, whatever, however you wish to describe her, called Abby Ryder Fortson. ANd it doesn't appear to be

in the long lists for anybody, but I thought that was just a, it was a great piece of work. Granted middle of the road, sort of American filmmaking, but um, and I'm not getting the vibe for anatomy of the fall, anatomy of a fall, I beg your pardon, or Saltburn. But the thing I think is great this year is that four of the movies we've mentioned are directed by women, which is a breakthrough moment, I think that

There are four movies in the running this year, which um have women directors, which is not as good as it could be, but it's getting better.


Vance
I do have to ask you, what do you think of Oppenheimer as a film? I'm gonna ask you before I answer what I think.


Nigel
I'm going to say it was good. I mean, it didn't knock my socks off. I went to see it in the theater. I made a point of going down the hill to actually see it in the theater rather than waiting to get a screener. Um And I think it was very well done. Acting was great. I felt it was, you know, it was one of those movies where there's a great two hour movie trying to escape from this three hour marathon. But perhaps that's just me.


Vance
Yeah, you know, I agree with you on all those points and I love Christopher Nolan's work. I'm a big fan and, you know, I thought it was horrific that uh Dunkirk didn't win the Oscar in that year. But um this film, on the other hand.


Vance
I got to tell you, I stayed pretty disconnected because of really the soundtrack. I thought it was so overbearing. It was like there was almost no quiet, right? And sometimes you just want to be- to be able to immerse yourself in the character without being hit over the head with music or audio elements. So um as much as I loved his work, that really...

took me out of the film, I have to say.

Nigel
Interesting, that brings up another movie which has caused discussion, which is Zone of Interest. Have you seen that?

Vance
Not yet, but um I'm incredibly curious.

Nigel
All right. Well, the reason I'm bringing that up in relation to sound is that it's the story of a German family in the Second World War and he runs a concentration camp, which I believe is Auschwitz. [Vance: It's Auschwitz, yeah] And across the wall is Auschwitz, but you never see it. You just hear it. You hear the sound of the trains arriving. You hear the sound of...


Nigel
people shouting, you know, obviously uh the German soldiers, the Nazi soldiers, I think we should say, and gunfire and whatnot. So it's a story of two completely opposite areas. And I was very strongly of the feeling that you did need to see some of the stuff on the other side of the wall because you do not see that in the movie. My uh father-in-law is a Holocaust survivor.

And I know there are people who believe that the Holocaust did not happen. And I feel that we still have to bang the nail on the head with a hammer and show people the terror so that it would never ever happen again. And on some level, though I think the movie was very well constructed, I felt it kind of avoided the terror rather than accentuated it.


Vance
Yeah, well, I do want to see it. I'm very curious about the film. To your point, though, the Holocaust deniers, I mean, that is just... I have- I have no words to describe the insanity that is to me. Um but, um you know, we've seen a lot of Holocaust films about Auschwitz and very similar. Um I certainly have seen...

enough imagery to last multiple lifetimes of those events. So um I have to see the film to really judge. I do see your point though.


Vance
Uh One thing I just wanted to mention is this is the first year the ASC has an award for outstanding music video, cinematography in a music video, which uh to me personally is a long time coming.

Nigel
I was about to say it's 40 years too late, isn't it?

Vance
[laughs] You know, I'm on the committee, the music video committee for the ASC among several others, um Daniel Pearl being one of them, a good friend of mine. Um You know, I think it's certainly for myself, as you well know, in my early days working with you, I was certainly inspired by...

ASC members such as Jordan Cronenweth, hence all the xenon lights we used to use and so on and so forth. But I do think that we also inspired uh you know, narrative cinematographers and other areas as well. I think uh you know, we sort of inspired each other in many ways and I certainly know other members kind of feel the same way.

You know, we were creating pop culture of the period and uh, you know, over several periods, actually, but, um you know, I think one hand fed the other and I think it sort of um went backwards and forwards.

Nigel
I totally agree. I mean, look at Maestro, you know, for all its faults as a script, there's a bunch of stuff in there which is totally, inspired by or influenced by, whichever words you like to use, stuff that you and I have done. I mean, you know, had a very Fincher feel visually. I certainly felt the black and white stuff at the beginning.

Vance
Yep.

Nigel
Yeah, I mean, the number, I can't tell you the number of times my phone has rung. And somebody at the other end has said, um, can you tell me how you did this? Because we're using it in a commercial or a scene in the movie or whatnot. And of course my immediate reaction is like, why the hell aren't you asking me to direct it then for God's sake? And you know, and then you sort of calm down and you have a word and you say, well, okay, we put the camera here. And you know, one thing worth noting is that if you're shooting.

a girl dancing in a school corridor that, you know, you can't go left and right. You can only go up and down and in and out basically.


Vance
Yep. Yeah, I mean, not taking anything away from, you know, the great narrative cinematographers that certainly inspire me to this day. But I do think that, we don't get camera tests. There's very little prep, we're just figuring stuff out on the fly. And a lot of the time, just hoping to goodness it works.


Nigel
Oh, I'm, I'm stunned when I read about, well we would try different wardrobe outfits for like five weeks and then we decided on this. And and you go, like, I had five minutes. [Laughs] [Vance: yeah] I didn't have five weeks. It's like they walked on set and I'm like, what the hell are you wearing? You know, and you turn, you know, have we got any other choices? Well, there's, we got a cardigan. All right, let's try the cardigan.

So yeah, I mean, that's an interesting point that we have very little time when we're making music videos to do these things, which become, as people have told me, iconic.


Vance
there's a music video I did, that was in New York, we were shooting in the Surrogate Court, it was with Busta Rhymes, put your hands where your eyes can't see, and there's this whole blacklight UV scene, right? And uh at the time there were these metal halide lights available called wildfire that...

They would not ship from Los Angeles. They were too expensive and we had 24 hours and I'm like, hmm, what am I gonna do? And um Kino Flo had these units called Flathead 80s, which were basically eight four foot Kino Flo tubes in each unit. I had two of them, maybe four of them, I can't remember, but I had mounted them on the dolly and put super blue tubes, which we use for um blue screen.

And then I added a deep Congo blue gel and I'm like, this should work. We'll see how it goes. And we were shooting film, so you didn't have the, digital latitude that will save your butt. So, we just did it and it worked, but there was no camera tests and , people going, you didn't test that first? How did you know it was going to work? I didn't.


Vance
I mean, my knowledge told me it would work, but sometimes until you actually put it into play, you don't know.

Nigel
I've done videos where the band showed up and they were a band member short on the morning of the shoot, an hour before shooting was supposed to take place. And um you figure it out. [Vance: yeah!] On one occasion, I actually became a member of the band. [laughs] I had to mime being the bass player all day. Were you on that job?

Vance
um, I don't think so. Maybe, I don't know. I can't remember. You know that the 80s were fairly foggy for me.


Nigel
Hahaha!

Nigel
I think the use of the word fairly is inaccurate there, but...

Vance
Very foggy.

Nigel
But yes, but I mean, okay, yes, they were foggy for you, but you did some great work, which is now very memorable. So that's why we're both here. That's why we're both allowed out of our cages to talk.


Nigel
So we're going to speak with an actor in a minute. And I understand that you've had some experience with actors who have a little badge on the inside of their jacket, which says A-list.

Vance
Yeah, there's this one that comes to mind. I think he's an A-list actor. His name is David McCallum, probably most well known for his role as Ilya Kuriyakin in the Man from Uncle TV series. Um I can't remember what the project was for, but um I know there was an oracle involved, like a well.


Vance
and there's this long, dark, winding hallway. It was all a big set, but the hallway is probably 70, 80 feet long. And it was like made of rocks and boulders and very dark. And it was a walk and talk. And there's certain moments of dialogue that happen. And, you know, it's a Steadicam shot. Steadicam's leading him. And I wanted it only have little patches of light.

keep this very, very mysterious. So... it was crucial that he hit the light and would find the light. And, you know, I talked to- I started talking with him, hi David, I'm Vance, I'm director of photography. And I wonder, would you mind walking through with me and checking this out? I- I wanna know if you could make this work.

He said oh, no, I'd love to, yeah, let's do this. And we walked through and we'd find these little patches of light that maybe only would catch his eye and a piece of his cheek, just really little slivers of light that you really had to search for and find. Otherwise it was, you know, backlight or top light where you didn't see his face. And, you know, we walked through this set and he would, he actually explored it and would actually.

find little pieces himself. Hmm, this would be good. What if I do this right here? It was so much fun and it was such a cool experience and he was such a gentleman. And uh to me, that's A-list actor right there. Not only did he give a great performance, but he also helped bring the visual story to life by his willingness to participate and help the process.

Nigel
Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. I've worked with actors who are very technically uh experienced, I wonder if he didn't learn that experience by doing

you know, a whole boatload of TV and doing episode after episode of Man from Uncle and whatnot. Because if you're an actor- [Vance: Have you seen the lighting in Man from Uncle?] [Vance laughs] You know what, well I have, but I was, you know, 700 years ago um on a British TV, you know, with imported film. Um But my point is, you know, a lot of that comes from experience, I think. Um And, you know, I've read horror stories about


Nigel
some actors who refuse to uh, you know, hit their marks or whatnot, because they want to basically overwhelm the scene. For me, an A actor is somebody who, you know, if you have two people talking on either side of a table, and you do the wide shot, and then you come over the shoulder of the first person to shoot the guy on the other side of the table, and then do the reverse, you don't actually have to have

the second actor in the room, somebody could read the other actor's lines because you're just doing a single on the person. Obviously for an overshouldy, you probably do need the other actor. And for me, an A-list actor is the one who sits beside the camera in a really difficult position, still giving the lines, still giving the emotion so that the actor who is actually in front of the camera can get the vibe.

Um No offense to any script supervisor in the world. Unless that script supervisor is a frustrated Robert De Niro or Helen Mirren, you're not gonna get the same vibe delivering your lines. And that for me is the definition of an A-list actor and however big they are that they sit behind the camera and do their part to make the scene work.


Nigel
All right, let's introduce our acting person. This is gonna be very exciting. I'm very excited, which is why I'm whispering.

Vance
But Nigel, before we introduce the acting person, because maybe you were an acting person once. Were you ever an acting person? Did you actually act? Not play a bass guitar, but actually act as a...


Nigel
Oh yeah. My first appearance was as a sister, a cousin and an aunt in the HMS Pinafore. My second appearance on stage was as Iolanthe when I was at school and I had to dress up in a rather attractive semi-see-through dress because I was Iolanthe, the queen of the fairies.

Vance
Ha ha ha.

Nigel
And it took me, you think I'm taking the piss, don't you? I actually have, I have a picture of me being Iolanthe, queen of the fairies, which is when you're 12 years old at an all boys school, I can tell you brings a whole pile of shit with it that you don't really want to talk, [Vance: I can only imagine] I've appeared in a bunch of my videos, usually doing something stupid. And in the movie uh, which I met our guest who will be coming up in a minute.

Nigel
I played the part of a, I think I played the part of a film director, which I've done twice now. Played the part actually on camera in the film. Because you know, it's a laugh. I think the other thing is that subtly or unsubtly, it tells the actors that you're willing to throw yourself under the bus in front of the team, which you're asking them to do every day. So um and you know, you only do it to be in there for, you know, a minute or something.

Nigel
Okie doke, this is the really exciting part for me in that we're now going to speak to our guest of the day. And this is a gentleman that I've been asking Vance and Lindha and Tyler to put on the show virtually since we began it. He's a dear friend. Get ready, sit down, be comfortable. Are we sitting comfortably children?

Nigel
I've been dying to get today's guest onto the podcast. He's an extraordinary actor with 194 credits on IMDB. And if you've never seen his work, that means you've never been to the movies or watched a TV show. Just a few of the more than 190 episodes of TV shows he's appeared on include. Get ready for it.

Nigel
Cheers, Remington Steel, Golden Girls, Family Ties, Beverly Hills 90210, Law and Order, Murphy Brown, NYPD Blue, LA Law, Walker Texas Ranger, Sabrina Teenage Witch, Gilmore Girls, Grey's Anatomy, Mad Men, CSI, Arrested Development, and more. His feature film appearances include War Games, Together, Oliver's Ghost, Heartbreakers, Jingle All the Way, The Flintstones, Problem Child 2,

Canine, Inner Space, Friday the 13th part six, and one of my all time favorite films which I watched again last night, Tin Men. In addition, he's also known for his extensive and frequent stage work, Alan Blumenfeld. Welcome to the show, that's an incredible resume.

Alan Blumenfeld
Thank you, mate. It's so good to be with you again. I have missed you very much. That's a lovely resume. I will update and say in modern times, I also did uh, my first job out of COVID actually was with Al Pacino on Hunters, the second season I played his rabbi. My first job out of COVID was just he and I across a table for eight hours. It was spectacular. And I worked with Steve Carell twice, once on a show called

Space Force and most recently on The Patient, which I don't know if you've seen it, but it got, it was, he's just interesting, wonderful actor. He's gonna do Uncle Vanya in New York on stage. And I think that's remarkably good casting. Anyway, thank you. I was a little humbled, but only a little.


Nigel
Well, it's an extraordinary list of stuff. And one thing that you and I are going to do right now, which we've never been able to do on the podcast, because we always talk to people who do stuff behind the camera. You're the first, I think, in front of the camera person we've had. And obviously I can't get a cameraman to demonstrate what he does on a podcast. But as you're an actor, you can demonstrate for us.

And you and I, when I first worked together with you, was on a film called 2gether, which we did for MTV. You played the part of a manager of a couple of bands, and you're gonna read a little scene for us, and I'm gonna set the scene. Uh, you were the manager of a five-man pop band called Whoa, and you're talking them through their dance steps.

and you discover to your dismay that one of the members of the boy band has a tattoo. You then get into an argument with the label guy and this is what your response is. Go. Action.

Alan Blumenfeld
Look, Noel, there are five basic types when it comes to any successful boy band. There's your bad boy type, your rebel, that's one. Your shy, bashful type, two. Your little one, the dewy-eyed youngster, that's three. Then four, you have a reassuring older brother type. Chris here is the heartthrob, the teen dream, the guy who holds it all together. He's the one pointing at you from the poster whose eyes say, take care of me and hold me. And that boy cannot have a tattoo!

Nigel
[laughs] many, many happy memories

Alan Blumenfeld
Oh my God, I had so much fun working with you on that show. And I remember uh calling my wife uh and just regaling her with tales of how spectacular you were as a director. And I just, it was one of the best jobs I've ever done.

Nigel
Wow, the check's in the post. Uh, Vance is gonna start actually with the questions. He's got an opening gambit question for you. Go Vance.

Vance
Yeah, well, I do love the fact that you were the 40th victim of Jason in Friday the 13th, part six, [Alan: Oh lovely!] and you lost your head, I believe. [laughs]

Alan Blumenfeld
I did. And I will say the head of the studio collected a lot of these things, uh these pieces that were made for the horror movies. And uh I wanted to take the head and bring it home and serve it to my mother on a silver platter under a little one of those little things. [Vance & Nigel laugh] Because I thought that would just crack her up or horrify her. And I thought it would be a great thing, but I couldn't get it.

Vance
So I started out many years ago in theater as a gopher in the lighting department. You started your career in theater, I believe. And one of the things I've loved about that medium, it's very immediate. You're connecting with an audience. Um, your um, you have to project more.

Vance
And there's no take two. You transition, you started in that. So I'd love to know how that began. And also what's it like to transition into work in film

Alan Blumenfeld
No, it's a great question. It's a question that's asked often. It's a difference of degree rather than kind in terms of what work has to, how work has to change or might change or what it- how it's affected when the camera is so close. So I started in theater because that's all I ever thought I would do. I mean, I'm a Jew from Long Island. And so I loved all these Broadway guys and all the...

gods of comedy, Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner and Sid Caesar, and those people, I thought that was what I would do.

so I always wanted to be a stage actor because as you say, it's the immediacy. It's the effect you have on the audience. It's, yes, it's not just getting the laugh, it's feeling the breath of the audience. And there've been a lot of studies on this that literally um the heartbeat and rhythm of breath synchronizes uh among the audience members and with the people on stage.


It feels magical or mystical, but it's actually physiological that you can, and you hear this with great orators and great speakers in a large space where people seem to be carried away with what's going on, both for good or ill. And one of the reasons is they literally start breathing together in a way that's very subconscious. So that interaction, the intimacy of that is to me

Alan Blumenfeld
What is most spectacular about theater. And I've continued to do theater. And LA has a lot of theater, not all great, but a lot of theater, and I love it. Transitioning from that to half hour situation comedy where you have three or four cameras it's easier in a way because you have a live audience in front of whom you're recording the show.

When you're doing film, it's a little different because, you know, your face is 40 feet across the screen. And for my face and my nose in particular, that's really more than anyone should be subjected to. But uh the thing to learn is how to, again, it's about breath, how to...

Use your breath to create a connection with the camera because the camera can read thought. And I've worked with amazing actors. I won't name. It's one woman who's a huge star. And we were doing a scene and watching her live while she's doing the scene saying goodbye to her sister. I kept thinking there's just nothing going on. She's just not even doing anything.

Watching the playback, even on the video, much less on the film, she was so alive and her eyes were so alive with so much thought and so much emotion. And that was a huge lesson for me in terms of stillness and in terms of how to use your breath and how to point all of your...

Relationship through the eyes to the camera or to the other person. That's long-winded, but that's my take on this.

Vance
But that's a really interesting point and you see that with great actors. [Alan: yes] I mean you can have these very, very quiet moments with barely a word spoken, but it speaks volumes.


Alan Blumenfeld
Yes, and it all comes through the eyes. I mean, cameras, as you all know, the camera is just this remarkable, remarkable thing that was created that just brings the kind of intimacy that you can't get on stage, because it brings you right there into the actor's eyes and thoughts. I love it very much. I like the mix of film and television and theater. As an actor, that's the most fun to me.

Vance
Yeah, I think there's definitely so much to be drawn from both me from a lighting perspective as a cinematographer is, you know, [Alan: Sure] I still use a lot of old theater techniques in film because I really think they do cross over. But you're right, that intimacy you get with the camera, that is very different.


Alan Blumenfeld
Oh, you know, at USC film school, film is a is an elective. It's all digital because that's what everyone does. And I think that's just fucked because you're losing such a, you're losing so much by not understanding.

What the palette is with film and light. It's the thing I understand the least, and it's the place where I like to hang out the most is with the cinematographer, if I could stay out of the way, and the lighting people to see what they're doing, how they're painting the whole thing. Because if you don't light it and paint it and get it together, you can be acting up a storm and you're never gonna fucking see it. So it's really important.


Nigel
So, when you and I first worked, we were shooting 2gether. And I think at the end of the first or the second day, I was doing a blog way back when about the making of the movie. And I remember saying that working with you was like playing on a Stradivarius violin, because whatever direction I gave you, I got back to my shock and horror and surprise and more.

And I was just wondering, is there ever a moment when you're on set and the director gives you some direction and you just ignore it?

Alan Blumenfeld
Well, you can't ever ignore it because then you get into ego and, you know, everyone has to feel good about themselves. And I'm a polite, I can be an asshole, but I try to be polite when I'm working. Um, so the issue is how to translate a direction into something that's playable. And I remember I said to you, and you didn't find it rude, which I was grateful for,

I believe I said to you after the first day, how did you learn to talk to actors? And you had said you worked with Judith Weston. So plug for Judith Weston, who's a dear friend. And of course I know her well and I know her book. And she talks about verbs and how to find something playable, something active. Um, so yes, I was doing a play.

based on the book The Chosen. I was playing a Hasidic rabbi, shocking. And it's a wonderful, wonderful story. And the director kept saying to me, you need to be more like a guru. You need to be more holy. You need to be, and I'm thinking to myself, what the fuck are you talking about? How am I gonna be a guru? How am I gonna be spiritual?

And then I met a rabbi who's become a dear friend. Um, and I was talking about what Hasids do, and he said, oh, the Hasids are listening. They're listening for God to speak to them. They believe God actually speaks to them. So now that's something I can play. And then he gave me his Talmud. The Talmud is interpretation of the Torah, and there are 23 volumes covered.

They take like a little section of the Torah and then there's all around it are commentary and he gave me these giant oversized, gorgeously leather bound books on Vellum and I said, oh man, I'm gonna make these I can't he said no you touch them, You draw it in, and you soak it, in you so- and that is playable. I can play the action of soaking something in, I can play the action of listening for direction

Alan Blumenfeld 
from God, I can't play being spiritual. So my job as an actor is to listen to whatever I'm told and say, thank you, that's brilliant. [Vance & nigel laugh] And either do exactly what I did before, or figure out how to translate it into something that makes sense to me and that I can do. Some directors just love

the tech, the lighting, the cameras. And many directors hire you and they're like, you know, you do that, I hired you. You know about acting, so don't ask me. You do what you wanna do. I'm gonna make sure that it's well lit and well shot. And okay, that's no harm, no foul, I get it. I just have to know that. And in some ways it gives me more uh latitude as an actor to just go, okay, well, I'm in charge.

So I'm gonna do what I wanna do until they say, well, stop, that's like, you're way over the, you're over the line there, dude, come back.

Nigel 
Well mentioning Judith, who we actually had on the show a couple of episodes ago, [Alan: well done] one of the things which shocked me when I first started doing her class is she said, "the first thing you have to do is when you look at the script as an actor, it says, 'you know, this character, Joe Smith is 50 years old. He's a tall, arrogant man, blah, blah.'" It gives you all this information.


Nigel 
She said, "cross all that out. Just use the facts that are given to you in the script." Do you do that? Do you cross out the information or do you take that on board when you first get your script?

Alan Blumenfeld 
Well, see, that's- that's the problem. I, of course, read it, so I auditioned for a role once, you know, the Senator, distinguished 50s, and I'm like a little fat round, you know, a peasant potato eater type from Eastern Europe heritage. So a tall, distinguished Senator with you know white sideburns, I'm fucked. So I read that and I wanna say, why am I even going in? I shouldn't even audition. But then I remember,

Don't read that. Just do the character. Because a lot of times, with all due respect, the people who are doing it, sometimes they have no idea of what they really want until you go in, and as my agent used to say, win it in the room. Or at least get people in the room to go, oh, that's interesting. You mentioned Tin Men. Barry Levinson, uh who I loved working with, very interesting guy.

Uh.. He would say, all right, so uh you do that thing where the two of you, you do blah, and you do that thing. Go ahead, do that now. And I remember looking at Richard Dravitz going, what the fuck? What did he just say? I have no idea what he just said. And then we would just do what we did. So I remember after reading it and saying I shouldn't even be in the room, I remember then saying, just find the character, do what my take on what this is.

And what Barry said to me was his vision of what my character in Tin Man was, was basically a tiny, thin, kind of mousy guy. And something about me just made him go, oh, that's interesting, let's do that. it's very binary to me, the whole work. It's me or it's not me. And why it's not me is none of my business.

You know, too tall, too short, too fat, too thin, too old, too young, too whatever. Although lately I'm Jew, I play Jew, Jewy, Jew, Jew. Jew, [laughs] every Jew. And I want them, I'll play them, I love it. I'm a Jew, I'm proud, no problem. But when I was younger, I could play a wider range and now, you know, it's...


Alan Blumenfeld 
Every character I play is either Jew or New York type, which is the polite way of saying Jew. [laughs]

Nigel
Vance has a really interesting question about working with heavy duty actors.


Vance 
Star talent. or let's say that type of actor, but you know I speak to other cinematographers a lot, that are doing narrative TV work or shows on Netflix, whatever it may be. One of the things that they talk about having to manage very honestly is

dealing with star talent in a way so they don't get fired. [Alan: right] I mean, the job's stressful enough without adding that layer to it. there's a lot of star talent that are amazing people to work with, But certainly, there's a whole other group where, whether it be through ego, insecurity, or whatever,

who you really have to tiptoe around. Do you see this happening? and do you have to deal with that as well?


Alan Blumenfeld 
Of course, I mean I'm mainly a guest actor, recurring. I've been a regular a couple of times on a TV show, but mainly I'm a guest actor. So when you're a guest, it's like going to someone else's house for dinner. And if they're polite and they're inclusive, then you're having a lovely evening. If they've had a fight or they're, you know, ornery bastards, then you're gonna have to kind of, you know, suck it up and be to yourself. So.

Mainly I've seen directors especially, not give any direction to stars, which I think is uh unfortunate. [Vance: yeah] So there was one story from a wonderful director, Started in the theater, does a lot of television, a lot of big, long form, star-studded television. He said he worked with a

a real big star early on. And the guy was just not hitting anything. And so he went up and said, look, you know, just as an idea, how about, and gave him real direction to go in a completely different way. And then he went to lunch thinking, okay, I'll just pack up and go home. But they came back afterwards and the guy totally changed his performance to what,

the director had suggested. And he said afterwards that the actor had said to an associate, not to him, no one has ever done that for me before. No one has had, he didn't use the word courage, I'll use the word courage, to come up and say, "here's direction, you're good, and I want something else." And the other story I'll tell you related to this is, so I worked with Al Pacino, my first job back from COVID.

Just the two of us, across the table. That's Al Pacino, I mean, oh my God. So he's 83, he's five foot six. He's a tiny little Italian guy, who if you went to Cafe Trieste in San Francisco, he'd be one of these other little Italian guys having espresso and you know he's just lovely.


Alan Blumenfeld 
Anyway, so my line was, how are you my friend? And his line was dot dot, I'm unstuck, I feel unstuck somehow. So I say, how are you my friend? And he says, oh, oh you noticed.

I didn't think anyone would notice. You know, I'm just not myself. I just don't feel like I'm, and he goes around in a circle till he gets to, I just feel like I'm unstuck. I'm unstuck somehow. So I'm thinking, I love this. He's going to say his inner monologue out loud until he finds the way to say the line as honestly as he can. And I love this. Let's do this. Great. Director says, cut. Wonderful work, Al. Beautiful.

The director comes to me and says, make it shorter. [Vance & nigel laugh]


Alan Blumenfeld
I'm like, do you want me to make Al Pacino talk more quickly? OK, that's a great direction. So I'm cutting him off. I'm giving him the line again. I'm trying to alter- you know, give him a different line. And he was wonderful. he took it all. You know, he's a great actor. He likes to play. And that was wonderful. So after about four, and he works eight hours straight through, no lunch. He was amazing. 83.


Alan Blumenfeld
We should all have such a long career and have the energy to do that. So then it comes to my close-up. So I'm you know, after two or three takes I'm feeling hey, you know, and I and so I start, you know Extending my line a little bit [Vance & Nigel laugh] And the director says, uh good cut and he turns to me says Alan less. I said, oh Pacino no problem


Alan Blumenfeld 
But for Blumenfeld, fuckin' do less. [Vance & Nigel laugh] so the director was using my, and he's a great director I've worked with him a couple of times and he's a brilliant cinematographer as well. And you know, so that was his way around it, to try to allow the star to do what he does and to try to


Alan Blumenfeld 
create the context in which he could get what he wanted.

What I've seen also on TV series is the regulars, it's their show, and the directors come and go. And that's really unfair to the director, 'cause the director's not gonna put his stamp, forget it. It's stamped, sealed, and delivered, baby. You're fucking done. This is how it runs. They know what they're doing. [Vance: Yup] And so I think that makes it harder.

Vance 
Yeah, it's a- it's a challenge. I mean, I have some very notable cinematographer, director, um told me a story of going on to a show as a director, and basically them saying, no, we're gonna do it this way, you just, yeah.

Alan Blumenfeld 
Exactly. Just move the cameras, leave us alone. Yeah

Vance
Yeah, exactly

Nigel 
Well, speaking as the director person in this trio, what happens when you do something like that is that the person who does the pilot sets the uh template. So this is the way the lighting is going to be, this is the approach of the shooting, this is the style of directing with the characters and whatnot. And unless the show starts going off the rails quite


Nigel 
seriously in the first three or four episodes. That's the template that will be [Alan: right] adhered to for the next 12 seasons or whatever. Certainly it might develop, but that's the agreed process. And that's where the business part of show business comes in because you know, people get used to it and that's what they want.



Alan Blumenfeld 
Yeah exactly.

Nigel 
Alan, you've had this extraordinary career and you're still having it. [Alan: you're so kind] You've got enormous amounts of experience. Uh You are at the coffee shop and there is a very clear-eyed 19-year-old standing beside you ordering a cup of coffee and realizes that you're this actor and says, "can you give me some advice?" What would you tell them?

Alan 
Um I would say to a 19 year old, do as much acting as you can. answer every ad. Find a class that sets you on fire. Find a community of artists that make you feel good about yourself. Uh Don't question your decision to love what you do. Read every play you can get your hands on. See as many movies as you can. Study art history. Travel as much as you can.
Become more of a person and then you'll be a better artist. I believe in that.

Vance 
I'm 100% with you on that. If you do what you love, you'll have a much better chance of succeeding in my opinion. And being happy in life.


Alan Blumenfeld 
Yes, having a good life.

Nigel 
It's the old phrase, if you work what you love, you'll never work a day in your life.

Alan Blumenfeld
i think that's really true, I mean it's fear right i mean in the recovery world fear stands for face everything and recover. you can either be in fear or you can be in faith and if you're in fear then all the choices you make are gonna be kind of fucked.

uh they may safe, and they may be okay in the moment, but if you stay in faith in what you think is possible, I think you're gonna have a better outcome for yourself.

Nigel 
It's um what Judith taught me in the acting class, to be prepared to succeed, you have to be prepared to fail brilliantly.

Alan Blumenfeld 
Bill Ball who was a great teacher at the american conservatory theater used to say fail big, fail gloriously. god have i ever! i mean i pride myself when i'm willing to take huge chances and- and- and be foolish


Nigel 
Which brings me to my final question, which is what's the worst audition you've ever had?

Alan Blumenfeld 
Oh my God. Well, I don't remember the show, but everything that could have happened, you know, we don't do anything live anymore now, right? All auditions, you put yourself on, they say put yourself on tape, but of course there's no tape. You record something on Xs and Os and send it into the ether, and then somebody watches it, I hope. Um But I- in the old days, when you went live and in person, there'd be a room full of people.

And when I walked in for an audition, um the lunch order had just arrived and was wrong. And so they spent the first several minutes rearranging and no, go ahead, go ahead. Who had the pickle? And then the phone rang and somebody picked up the phone. Everything that could have gone wrong. And at one point I stopped and I said uh, you know, you guys seem to be lovely and I'm gonna just leave now. And I walked out.

Nigel 
Wow.

Alan Blumenfeld 
because it was just out of the question. And I also had a situation where, you know, the schmooze was great, we're making jokes, we're laughing, and I start reading and the room goes dead. And I stopped and I said, oh, so the schmooze was better, huh? And the guy said, yeah, I'm afraid so. I said, all right, well, thanks for your time. I mean, listen, I fucked up, it wasn't me. This was not my day, so let me carry on.

Nigel
I was asked to audition once for the part of a director in a commercial. A friend of mine was a producer and said, we're making this commercial, we need a director directing babes on the beach or whatever. So I said, yeah, all right, I'll come in. You know, I've done a little, I've done the occasional bits, you know, so I go in, I do my audition, you know, the, the director of the commercial is talking me to pretend I'm directing a commercial, right?


Nigel 
So he says, pretend there's five girls over there and tell them what to do. So I do my spiel and a bit more of this now, more to the left, lovely, and jump up and down and blah, which is exactly what I do [Vance: yeah] [Alan: yeah] in a- when I'm directing. And the- they all sort of looked at each other and their faces were very long and they said, thank you very much, Nigel. Okay. We'll, you know, we'll take the next person now. And I'm walking out and I hear the directors not being quiet, saying to the producer from the uh commercial company. I don't know who that guy is, but he couldn't direct his way out of a paper bag.

Alan Blumenfeld 
Oh my God, see! this is, all right, so I'll tell you. [Nigel: 750 jobs later...] [Vance laughs] So in acting school, we had this little exercise that we had to do and set up a little scene and do the exercise. This guy was playing a bus driver and they- they do the scene and they stop and the teacher says, who has become a dear friend and I love him, he's great. He changed my life in some ways. Anyway, he's giving feedback. He says, now Ben, that's not how a bus driver would actually react.


Alan Blumenfeld 
and we all say he's a bus driver. And Bob says, yes I know that's the thing. A bus driver has to be helpful you can- no, no, Bob he's a bus driver. I know he's a bus driver that's what I'm saying a bus driver can't ignore the, bus driver has to be of help, has to be of service it's a spiritual thing. No Bob he's actually a bus driver in real life his job is that he's a bus driver

And the guy said, yeah, bus drivers don't fucking get involved with, you know, whatever idea you have about the being of service as a bus driver, bus drivers ignore everyone because everybody's crazy. So it's like, you know, what we think of. And and I hope that director, by the way, who said that about you, I hope he never works again.


Vance 
One funny story, and related to this is many years ago, there was a movie called True Lies, directed by James Cameron with Arnold Schwarzenegger. A friend of mine was at the time, he was audio department, mixing sound for the film. There's the Harrier jump jet scene where they're landing. So they go to the Marine base

down south towards San Diego and record all these Harrier jump jets. And goes into the studio and Cameron comes in and they play this for him. He gets up, throws his pen on the table and goes, that's not what a Harrier sounds like. they ended up recording a vacuum cleaner.


Alan Blumenfeld
Oh my god. Oh my.


Vance
That's the story, whether it's true or not, I don't know, but it probably is.

Alan Blumenfeld 
It makes a lot of sense.


Nigel 
There's just so many more questions I'd love to chat with you about, but thank you so much. It's wonderful to have an actor on our podcast because that's what we shoot all day long when we're working, whether they're musicians or extras or whatever.

Alan Blumenfeld 
Well, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I love you. You're very wonderful and I miss you and it's great to meet you, Vance.

Vance 
Great to meet you too Alan, it's been a real joy.

Alan
it was a pleasure. I love it.


Nigel 
That was great listening to Alan. I love him. And uh Vance mentioned a very interesting moment, which is the Harrier Jump Jet story from True Lies, uh which was eventually um matched with the sound of a vacuum cleaner. I made the video, one of the music videos for that movie with Living Colour. And of course we...

intercut the video with footage from the film. And it's part of a very long story, which I shall cut short, but it was insisted that I include footage of the Harrier jump jet, which of course is a military aircraft. And the film company insisted that the footage of the Harrier jump jet was in the video, which is fair enough. So we slotted it in. The video was approved.

and it went off to MTV. And of course, at the same time, the movie is having its trailers advertised on TV to show off the movie. So the video has been delivered. I'm sitting at home. I've got the television in the corner on my desk for MTV, and it cuts to, you know, the commercials. And they show the trailer for the movie, for the True Lies movie.

And there's the jump jet scene, you know, blah, jump jet, True Lies at your theater on Friday, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, there's the trailer for the movie, you know, okay. I guess they'll be playing the video within a minute and a half. My phone rings. I pick it up. And I think my producer was Nina DeLui at the time. And Nina says to me, we've got to recut the video for the true lies movie, and I'm going, why?

uh because it's got the Harrier jump jet scene in it and MTV are refusing to play it because it's too aggressive and military and I said I'm watching MTV now 90 seconds ago they had the trailer on which has got the jump jet in it So they'll play the jump jet if it's on the commercial, but if it's in the video, they won't play it, what? this is crazy.

Nigel 
And of course, there's no explanation for crazy so I had to take the jump jet out of the music video and uh it played in the trailer on MTV but it did not play in the music video and that is the kind of crazy crap that you and I have to go through when we make stuff.


Nigel 
Okay Vance, I have one final question for you before we leave you. What are we missing?

Vance 
We're missing people asking us questions. We love questions. You can send them to @TwoStopsOverPodcast on Instagram, um TikTok, and Facebook.


Nigel 
there's lots of interesting questions we could be asked about, you know, whether we wear rubber and underwear while we're shooting, or if we have special haircuts to do our jobs, or what kind of shoes Vance wears so he doesn't get electrocuted by his lights on set.

Vance 
Or do I remember anything that happened in the 80s? 

Nigel 
[laughs]


Nigel 
Alrighty everybody, thank you very much for listening. The best review of the week will get um a bunch of money sent to them. No, they won't. [Vance: Just kidding!] It could be a bad review. Hate that English guy, love the Aussie. You know, whatever you like, go for it. Okay, this is it. This is the end. Say bye bye, Vance.


Vance 
Bye bye Vance