Guys Wearing Funny Little Outfits, Red Rag to a Bull, and a Very Exclusive Club (w/ guests Amelia Hann & Jamie Batten)

Vance
Well, hey everyone, uh welcome to our tenth episode of Two Stops Over. Hey Nigel, tell us what we got going on this episode.

Nigel
Well, I think to get in the mood for this episode, you need to make a cafe au lait and hopefully get yourself a baguette and some jambon. No, jambon is ham, that's not right. I don't know what the French for jam is. Anyway, you need to sit down, get comfortable and put a silly cycling hat on like the one I'm wearing right now because we're going to talk about making our way around France with about 50 people making a TV series for the first time and all the things that go along with that.

Vance
In Australia, we'd say, "On your bike sport!" So it's kind of like it is. We're also going to talk about a very entertaining moment in the telecine with Nigel many, many years ago.

Nigel
This was the point at which Vance's career could have gone forward or could have gone backwards.

Vance
there was a moment where I thought, hmm, I'm gonna be a gaffer for the rest of my life.

Nigel
Pffft. [laughs]

Nigel
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another edition of Two Stops Over. And before we go any further, I think we need to give Vance a big pat on the back because he's been admitted to a very exclusive club, which has three letters: A, S and C, the American Society of Cinematographers.


Vance
pretty humbling. I gotta say,I actually do this from my, my color grading bay and on the front of my grading monitor right in the corner is the ASC logo, in hopes of one day, I could become a member of this amazing society that began in 1919. And, invitation-only you cannot apply. So it's pretty gratifying.

Nigel
Here's the most important question, is there a special handshake?

Vance
No, but the the entry process is quite entertaining. Well, when I say entertaining, I think it's probably more uh...

Nigel
humiliating?

Vance
Uh, no. Nerve racking, I would say because, you know, starts out with, members write letters for you, recommending your admission, and I was fortunate, I had six different people wrote letters for me. Um, you only need three but uh, it took about six months before I could start the initiation process, which, schedule wise, it only happens once a month, and I was in New York, or I was working, etc, etc. So finally, you go to the ASC clubhouse, and, you know I had to be there at, I think my thing's at 10:30. So I arrived at 10:15. And, my palms were sweating. And you know, incredibly nervous knowing that I'm gonna walk into this room with people that I greatly admire and my peers. So finally, we got taken in this room, and there's, I guess, probably about 16, 18 people around this long table, and then a big monitor on the back with uh a Zoom call with other members of the Society.
Uh, my sponsors, were there - people that wrote letters - some of my sponsors were there. And you sit down, and I felt, very intimidated and very nervous and kind of shy, but they ask you about your background and your career, and they show some of your work. And you kind of have to talk through that work. "Well, you know, what was the director's intent on this piece? And how did you approach it? And what are your techniques?" And etc, etc. Which I had to do live, which I also had to do a recorded version that later went to the board, um in the second round, which, if you get through this round, then it goes to the board. It's all um you know, silent vote. There's no - sorry, anonymous voting? And then after the board, review and approve, then they send letters out to all the members to uh see if anybody was like, "No, can't have that guy in here." [Nigel laughs] And you know, I was, I was like, "hmmmm"

Nigel
you were going, "I know I shouldn't have barged ahead of that guy at the craft service table when I was a gaffer."

Vance
Yeah exactly! [laughs] It's like, "who did I piss off? I don't know." There was one cameraman who I did piss off very early in my career, but we'd since kissed and made up. So, he was actually quite supportive. But yeah, I mean, Daniel Pearl was very helpful in getting me this into this membership along with Dave Perkal, Pete Romano, Roy Wagner, Steve Gaynor, and also Marek from CamerImage also. So I have a lot of support and I'm incredibly grateful, incredibly humbled, and honored by this whole thing.

Nigel
Who was in the room with you when you were being interviewed?

Vance
Um, there was a lot of people were one I particularly remember because I'm just such a huge fan of what he did on the Marvelous Mrs Maisel was David Mullen. Shelly Johnson, obviously, the President of the ASC was there, and Daniel was there. Pete Romano was there. Peter Levy, who's a fellow Australian DP is also an ACS member, which I'm also a member of. And like I said, it was very intimidating. I just, my hands were sweating. And actually, last Saturday, I got to be on the other side, when they had two potential members came in and I was sitting around the table. So it was interesting to see it from the other side and my hands were not sweating at that point.


Nigel
Do you get a special pair of underpants to wear as well?

Vance
No, but you get a great big wooden plaque, apparently. I haven't got it yet. But [Nigel: Wow!], supposedly coming. [Nigel: Very good.] Yeah. But what was very cool. This was the first time apparently that footage was shown on the ASC website announcement for my membership. What they actually showed was a black and white version of Sweet Child of Mine. [Nigel: Wow.] Which I think was 1.5 billion views at the last look, or something like that.

Nigel
little did we know that that was going to be part of your introduction to a formal society.

Vance
I know! And the fact that you were obviously strategic in the beginning of my career, I got my start with you. So I thought it was kind of appropriate that that video was what they chose to put up. [Nigel: Wow.]

Nigel
I'm kind of shaking in my boots now just thinking about that.

Vance
Yeah, you should go to theasc.com, you actually, you can still click on it there and check it out.

Nigel
It's interesting, isn't it that the things that we started doing, both of us separately in our careers very early on, which at the time, certainly, my parents' generation, were horrified by are now sort of honored?

Vance
Yeah, it's interesting, right?

Nigel
Yeah, it's very interesting, how that has all come together. I suppose we should bring up the interesting and infamous telecine episode [Vance: Oh my god] from the previous Guns N Roses video, which was Welcome to the Jungle.

Vance
I'll never forget sitting in that telecine bay with George Cvjetnicanin

Nigel
So here's what happened boys and girls is that I met Vance when he was a gaffer. So Vance would come up to me on the shoot and he'd go, "I really want to get behind the camera. Please, please, please, Nigel, let me-" and I'm like, "Bugger off!" [both laugh] And eventually Vance wore me down. And so my, uh I'm trying to think of the right words, but my, "Okay, okay, child, I'll let you operate second camera on this video we're doing next week called Welcome to the Jungle by this new band who nobody's ever heard of called Guns N Roses." Well certainly nobody outside Sunset Boulevard. And so I guess it was some of the performance footage, right?

Vance
Yeah, remember, we shot the performance footage at Park Plaza Hotel. And that's when, you had two cameras. Joseph Yacoe was the DP and I was an uh B-camera operator. And Gaffer, of course.

Nigel
So, when it came to doing the performance stuff, Vance rushes over very excitedly, grabs the camera, and we start shooting. I don't know why it was it handheld, or we...?

Vance
No it was on sticks, on a ten to one, ten to one Zeiss on an SR. 16mm SR.

Nigel
So Vance rushes over and starts operating. And, everything seems to be going fine. And what one used to do back in those days is that you would develop the film overnight at the end of the shoot. And then the next day, you would go into the telecine bay, where the film will be put on two big reels in a fancy looking machine, and the images will come up on the TV screen in front of us. And we would choose the coloring, you know, more blue, less of this, more contrast, less contrast, whatever. And, the first image eventually comes up from the B camera. And, of course, we couldn't see the slate because Vance had run across the set to jump on the camera. And as he's sort of getting comfortable grabbing the arm looking through the eyepiece, the slate is up there, and it's a way away, so we can't really see it. So we zoom in, to get the slate, get the slate, and then obviously the tea arrives or the coffee arrives or something in the telecine suite, and we forget about what we're doing for a minute. We get back to the images, and we let the film roll. And of course, it's very fuzzy, and extraordinarily detailed, and totally useless. And Vance, what was going through your mind at the time?

Vance
Well actually let me just add, after you went into the slate, we did zoom out, to a point. But everybody's heads was chopped off when I'm in like sheer panic. And I'm- I see Nigel turning red, next to me.

Nigel
I'm just going. Okay, pal you've heard your chance. [laughs]

Vance
I think, "I will never be a DP now. This is never gonna happen. I've just completely blown it." And there's no cell phones then. We're at Unitel I believe, and I pick up a phone, I call uh I think it was Gregor Tavenner was first AC, I can't remember. "Hey, hey, Gregor um you know, we're supposed to frame inside the pumpkin," which is what we call the uh Safe Action Area in uh, in 4:3 back then, "...inside the pumpkin? Yeah. Hmm.. Oh, god. No, I'm framed up." And anyway, this goes on for a bit. And I'm like, "I don't know, I'm so sorry, Nigel. Oh, my God."

Nigel
Easily the first first roll I think which is 10. [Vance: Yeah] 10 or 11 minutes.

Vance
Well you remember they spool 1200 foot loads, three rolls together in telecine then. So this is 1200 feet and George's is just shuttling through. And everything is cropped in. And I am just, you know, heart is racing. I'm like, I feel terrible. I just want to crawl away and into a hole. And then all of a sudden, George goes, "Oh, hang on." Presses a button. "Oh, I didn't zoom all the way out." And everything was perfect.

Nigel
Well I wouldn't go as far as perfect, [Vance laugh] but useable I think would be a good phrase. [Vance: Oh Thank you.] So uh yeah, basically, we were transferring a sort of a one inch square in the middle of the screen for 12 minutes. So it was all rather grainy, especially as it was 16 mil. And it felt a bit out of focus.


Vance
Yeah, It was pretty crazy. George Cvjetnicanin was the colorist who went on to do Star Trek for many years, next generation

Nigel
And more importantly, he was the lead guitarist in my band. [Vance: Damn.] Yes, the- almost the entire band was made out of people who worked at Unitel at the time. [Vance: Oh, really?] Apart from me.

Vance
Who didn't work at Unitel

Nigel
Who did not work at Unitel. Yup. It was very interesting group discussion between numbers about 16 mil and grain and coloring and whatnot.


Nigel
Um, so what else are we talking about on this episode?

Vance
Well, I've known that you were into cycling and you love to go on cycling trips. I didn't actually realize how much you were into it, until you actually went to shoot the Tour de France. So maybe you could share a little of that with us

Nigel
Well, like most things in life, it all comes back to Britney. I'd been cycling for many years, I went on lots of cycling holidays, I cycled through Thailand, Vietnam, Canada, obviously the US, France, bit of Germany, bit of Italy. I've cycled all over the world and was just a fan of being on my bike. And then I had to go to New York to meet this young 16 year old singer. And they put me in a hotel in the morning before I was going to meet this young lady in the afternoon. And I had nothing to do.
So I turned on the TV and there is a guy on his bike, climbing a hill through the pouring rain, going up a French mountain and thousands and thousands of people are cheering him on. This guy's name was Marco Pantani, who's an Italian, he's passed away now. And I'm watching this, and I'm going, "This is amazing, what's going on?" And that was my introduction to the Tour de France. So I actually went to see the Tour de France twice on my own. And, quite by chance was introduced to a gentleman called Jonathan Vaughters, who had been a Tour de France rider, and had rejected the current understanding that drugs were cool for cyclists, and had founded a cycling team, whose very reason for existing was to say, "We will race without drugs." And, because of my history behind the camera, was invited to go to the Tour, with the Tour, for two years running.

Nigel
And so for two years, I went to France and shot every day of the Tour. From a practical filming point of view, was probably one of the toughest gigs I ever did. On the second Tour, we went through five countries. I shot every day. Of course, the Tour every day spreads itself over about 150 miles of countryside. And I was tasked with trying to make a short film every day, edit it at night, put it up on the web, and then get up the next morning and shoot the bike race. Which from a filming point of view, when you're working on your own, and you have no assistants or anything is a practical, almost impossibility, especially when you're trying to upload something to YouTube from a French hotel on the top of a mountain at two o'clock in the morning.

Nigel
So when we discovered that Netflix was doing a series about the Tour de France, I had to pay you, and Lindha, and Tyler an enormous amount of money to make sure that we could interview two people from the series. And uh we're going to be meeting them in a minute. And I'm very excited because I want to find out what their experience was like.

Vance
I have to admit, Nigel that you know, I watched Unchained for this episode and you know, I hadn't really paid that much attention to it. And after seeing it, I was pretty amazed at how intense the sport is, there's pain and suffering these riders go through, and you can certainly see the challenges that you would have had shooting it. And even the way it's covered you go, "Man oh man, that's craziness." Cameras on bikes, helicopters, drones, trying to get to uh finish lines. These crashes of people get pretty badly hurt to wear this yellow jersey and also win the Tour de France

Nigel
Even if you come last, it's probably one of the toughest bike races in the world. The interesting thing about the toughness is the guy who ran the cycling team I worked with, Jonathan Vaughters, was once asked, "What's it like, uh being a professional cyclist and crashing?" And he said, "Imagine being in your underwear in a car at 40 miles an hour and throwing yourself out of the window onto the tarmac."

Vance
And that's exactly right.

Nigel
That's exactly what it is. I mean, on any one day, just the change of temperature, and altitude can be enormous. You know, you can start by the sea at sea level, and finish at 6,000 feet. It is the pinnacle of endurance sports, and you need the support of all your fellow riders. And just to finish the Tour de France is a victory, quite simply. I mean, absolutely.


Vance
Another thing I learned from Unchained, uh which I did not know, was how tactical it is as a team. I mean, I never understood that. And just the fact that a rider, or their lead rider, per se, can hide behind other people in the peloton and basically eliminate wind resistance and things like that. It's pretty interesting. Can you share a bit more about that with us?

Nigel
Yeah, I mean, essentially, if you and I are cycling from Los Angeles to Santa Barbara, which is what? 80 miles, right? [Vance: Yeah] Well imagine doing that, and another half. And that takes four or five hours, maybe six hours if it's a mountain stage, depending on how extreme the ride is going. And you are the lead rider, and I'm one of seven people who are assisting you on this ride. Well, like any other human being in the world, you're going to want food, you're going to want drink. And you're going to want to take a piss at some point during the ride. And also what happens if your bike breaks down, you had a puncture, the gears clog up or whatever? So the seven of us behind you, knowing you're the lead rider, we're like, a bunch of ducks making sure the ducklings are safely behind, except there's only one duckling that we're looking after.
So if we ride in front of you, we shield you from the wind, if it suddenly starts pissing with rain, and bringing, you know, hailstones down, one of us, slows down and goes back to the team car, which is about, you know, could be a quarter of a mile half a mile behind to get your rain jacket. And then we ride like hell back up to the front to give you your rain jacket. And when we get there, you say, I'm thirsty, I've run out of water for my water bottles. So again, one of these people slows down and goes back and starts shoving water bottles down the back of their shirt, for the whole team, by the way, and then races back up to the front to give everybody a water bottle, and food, and all the rest of it. So this goes on every day. So you can be a Tour de France rider, riding frankly, an incredibly difficult race, where you have no chance of ever getting a prize, purely to provide you with water food, and you know, something else if you should need it.
And as a result, these people are called domestiques. You know, I'm a domestic, I'm a helper, basically. [Vance: Servants basically] Yeah, and some of these people actually are very valued and get quite a lot of money, because they just understand that they are never going to win a race, they are there purely to make sure that you are happy. Uh, cycling is an unusual sport, in that it's a team sport, but only one person can win the race. [Vance: Right.] Not the team. One person. Though there is a special classification in the Tour for the the winning team, but it's a very sort of minor prize, but obviously well prized by people who are domestiques, and never get chance to be the star, the guitar player, you know,


Vance
One of the things that kind of blew me away was the speed going down the mountains, like 100 kilometers an hour, which is around 60 miles an hour, on a bicycle going around corners in, like you say, their underwear. I mean, you come off a bike at that speed....

Nigel
The first Tour that I went on, went into Italy, and I was allowed to ride in one of the team cars that day. So I've got my camera, I'm in the car, I'm shooting, you know, thousands of people beside the roads. I mean, just amazing, for five hours you don't hear anything but screaming, because the road is lined with so many people. And we go over this mountain, which is the border between Italy and France, we're coming back into France. And we're coming down the hill and it's, you know, a bunch of U-bends going down the hill. And, we are desperately trying to keep up with the cyclists. The cyclists are going so fast that the car can't make it round the corners fast enough. And I'm sitting in the backseat. And I'm going uh-uh-uh-uh because the back axle of this car is bouncing up and down desperately trying to keep grip as we go around the corners. And as we're going around the corners, in a car with uh, an incredible vertiginous drop beside us, a cyclist is going inside the corner to overtake us, through a gap which is perhaps 18 inches wide. I mean one mistake by the driver or the cyclist, and it would have been a very ugly result. And, as we're going down this hill, one of the riders slid out of a corner and we could see him just tumbling down the hillside followed by his bike, bouncing over. I mean, it's not uncommon for people to get very badly injured. And, a couple of people have died at the Tour, you know, coming off their bike. And no protection.

Vance
Yeah. I mean, it's pretty crazy. It's an endurance sport. I also think after seeing this, I would consider it an extreme sport. [Nigel: mmm!] Because of that, that factor, the risk factor. I mean, those racing tires, they're tiny! You know, we look at an F1 car, and you and I are F1 fans. And, you know, they've got these great big slicks on and they're going through corners at very high speed, as we know. But these are these little tiny little narrow tires that's going to give you potentially very little grip. I mean, the contact patch of a bicycle tire on the road is very, very small.

Vance
I certainly have a whole new level of respect for it,

Nigel
if you find yourself in France, at the same time as the Tour de France, take a day off to go and sit beside the road because it's a complete event. For two hours before the Tour arrives, you get the publicity caravan, and like a hundred trucks are going past and they're throwing toys at you, and sweets, and pens. [Vance laughs] There's the guy on the Perrier truck who sprays you with water and...

Vance
Free stuff! Yay!

Nigel
Yeah, free stuff! It's amazing.


Nigel
The Tour de France is the biggest bike race in the world. It's spread over thousands of miles of countryside, not just in France, but often crossing international borders. It's been described as the only race that lasts so long you need a haircut in the middle of it. Professional cycling is notable for being the only sport which is raced as a team, but can only be won by one man. Le Tour is owned by the ASO the Amaury Sports Organisation, who hold a stranglehold over how the race is run and organized. In 2022, after the success of Drive to Survive, Netflix shot the Tour de France and named the series Unchained. So, we're delighted to have two members of the Unchained team here with us today: exec producer, and showrunner Amelia Hann, and director Jamie Batton. Welcome to Two Stops Over, guys.

Jamie
Hi, guys. Hello. Hi. Hi

Amelia
Hi, thanks for having us

Jamie
Thanks for having us

Nigel
And I understand you're calling us from London today is that right?

Amelia
We are! We have a rare opportunity to hang out together. So basically, we seize it whenever, whenever we can. Because since uh, since season one Jamie and I, uh, you know, gone our separate ways slightly, so we're missing each other. Because obviously a year making that kind of a project, is definitely uh, an immersive adventure.

Nigel
Absolutely, I understand. So uh here's the first question. And I leave you guys to choose who's going to answer the question. How did it come about? Who approached who?

Amelia
I mean, that's a huge question to answer to be honest with you, because it's such a massive team. so we can skin that in 101 different ways. It's a co-production between a French and a British company, so Quad Productions in France and Box to Box in the UK, creating a new company, Quad Box. And it was after a very, very long time. I mean, you know, years, I joined, what coming up to four years ago when I first started having conversations now. But it was already, had already been going a couple of years prior to that. So, um in terms of access, in terms of getting these things off the ground, um and I think that's actually really relevant to be honest with you, because these series, when you see them in the end, you just think "Well, actually, that's, you know, pretty obvious why hasn't anyone done it before?" But actually, there are a lot of reasons why people, didn't do it before! Because it's really hard!

Amelia
And I remember at the very start, when I was first starting to talk to people in cycling world, They're all saying to me, "Oh, no, but look, I mean, you know, you got to understand it, it's a closed shop. It's not like Formula One, it's not like other things is really closed, you're not going to get anyone giving you anything on this, it's going to be really hard to get into." And so there was a lot of kind of, um naysayers, um which I think for me is always a complete red rag to a bull. And it means in that case, there's a real reason to get stuck in and to um make something really amazing that surprises everyone. and obviously, you know, as you've mentioned, you know, ASO are, you know, the- governing body of the Tour. [Jamie: Yeah...] But, um, but we also, you know, Netflix are very strong partners in this. I mean, obviously hugely involved, um as well as the different production companies. And then we come to it at various different stages. As I say, I'd sort of been already talking to the production companies for um 18 months, I think, before we actually started being able to build the team. And then, you know, Jamie was...

Jamie
Yeah, I came on it quite late.

Amelia
Yeah. and lots of other team members as well. But thank goodness for uh Jamie bringing his expertise of cycling, which has really um been helpful because I'm not a cycling fan. And Jamie [Jamie: Yeah] very much is and also a very keen cyclist himself.

Nigel
which means you've kind of answered my next question, which was, The Tour is, you know, to people who don't know, The Tour is very tactical. [Jamie: yeah] And apart from just one person winning, there's actually six competitions running concurrently. [Amelia: Yeah!] So my question is, is Did you have to take a tutorial before shipping off to Denmark to actually do the race?

Amelia
This is like one of my favorite areas of this because it's such a crazy complex sport, where I know if you gave me sort of a, you know, a quiz, I'd get some of the answers wrong. prior to us actually filming the Tour, I went on the previous year's Tour so um [Nigel: ahhh] and had the great pleasure of sitting in and not only the organizing body cars, but also in the- the some of the team cars to get a real feel for it. And I remember I turned around to someone involved with the Tour for the last 15 years driving the route of the tour. And I asked, "Could you explain to me how the sprint points work on this?" And he turned anyway, "of course, I had no idea. Absolutely no idea" So it's just, it's a sport that's so, so complex, honestly, like, I know, loads of experts who don't know, or people, we would consider experts who don't know how it works.

Amelia
So I think that was a challenge for us coming in, then where it gets really fun was with the editorial is like, so how do we tell this story? And I think it's a huge credit to the whole team, that actually I was having a conversation, relatively recently with another commissioning editor who was talking to me about another sports series who said, "Yeah, but you know, this is a much more complicated sport series that, you know, we want you to be helping us with the thing with the Tour is it's pretty straightforward, right? It's a team of eight cyclists, who are all working hard to throw their sprinter to the front, so the sprinter can sprint." And I was like, "Well, yeah, that's what we say in episode one." [laughs] IN epsiode two... [Jamie: there's a lot more complexity than that] In episode two, we tell you a different story. And if you go through it, if you went through it sort of slicing in going, what is a bit of takeout that I'm getting here, you'll see that each of those episodes, you know, we worked really hard, with obviously the hugely talented, and really resilient team, to try and pull out you know, not only who are the interesting teams, who are the interesting characters within this episode, but what is the slice of the actual Tour that we can give you, that will be enough to make you feel really immersed, but not completely thrown, and therefore bored senseless.

Jamie
But also, I think it's one of those events that once you understand a little, it becomes more and more intriguing, [Amelia: yeah!] and more fascinating. [Amelia: You're right] it was a balancing act for us about in terms of how much information we give. Because we didn't want to overload people with too much complexity. , but I think at the heart of it, we wanted to tell human stories. [Amelia: yeah] And I think once you do that, it draws people in, draws people like my mum in, who has no idea about cycling. You know, take Fabio Jakobsen in episode one, you know, he'd had uh a crash, that a near death ex-, you know, a crash, basically. And he comes back and without spoiling it, you know, has success and, you know, and I think anybody can relate to that, because it's so fantastic human story, you know?


Nigel
I know, from my own experience of working at the Tour, I was just one guy with a camera, and a sound recorder, and a light in my bag, and an Anorak for when it got cold and wet [Jamie laughs] when you weren't expecting it. So and of course, I could slip into the back of a team car if necessary. Or I could run through the chute at the end of the race to find one of my riders or whatever. So how many crew did you have? And how did you figure out at the beginning of every day, where to send them?

Jamie
Wasn't there like... I think there was it wasn't there, like...
Amelia
How long have you got on this? [laugh]


Jamie
I'd say that's part of the reason it probably hasn't been done before. [Amelia: Exactly!] And I think um [Amelia: and that's part the fun right?] And I think there were probably, I es- we estimated at one point there was 70 of us. [Amelia: Yeah,] on the ground. [Amelia: 70 Yeah] so you imagine that the eight teams we were following, each team had a , a director, a sound recordist, plus a field producer, to help out so you know, you're eight times three straightaway. But then there's all of the logistics. This is a huge traveling circus every day. Every day is a new hotel, so I think it was sort of 10 directors really, because we had to cover other bases as well

Amelia
Absolutely, and we were swapping in and out. Like I found myself going in and directing some bits, Jamie was swapping place with the team directors. We also had COVID that was knocking out our team. [Jamie: I know! And so everybody was in a buffer] We kicked off and we were like, "Okay, COVID is behind us, so we're okay." And then we rocked up in Copenhagen and everyone, all of the cycling teams were absolutely, like terrified, they could barely speak, because suddenly everyone was going down with COVID again, and then some of our team, you know, would test positive and they'd have to be quarantined, and they'd get dumped in, like, the worst hotel room ever! In Calais

Jamie
Calais, overlooking um the UK, but not actually being able to get back. [all laugh] I mean, It was the worst hotel, the worst experience. And they didn't really, none of them really had covid. I mean, one of them tested positive

Amelia
Yeah, one tested positive. But ____ was being obviously, so strict, because the last thing we wanted to do is to get anyone infected, especially the athletes, you know, that was a completely sacrosanct from our point of view. But I mean, all of that logistical stuff, [Jamie: Yeah it was huge!] people don't realize it, Although our, you know, amazing team, and that's actually, you know, with with Charles and Yann, and the French team, Rosita, who were very much on the ground, managingall of the people flow, which was nuts, but it starts like weeks, months before, when we're sitting down in editorial meetings and going well, clearly, for eight programs, we aren't going to be filming eight teams nonstop, full on, in everything they do with all of the material,

Amelia
So, where do we highlight? And then we had this whole, like, grid system, didn't we? [Jamie: Yeah] Slightly nerdy, but Jamie, and I'd be talking through which of the stages were the most interesting stages. And then we work really closely with everyone on the team. So if the series producer, all of the directors, going in and saying to them, "so tell us, which are the stages that are important for your team? Which are the characters that are going to be important for your team?" And then what we could do there is we could actually start looking at, so we know that these stages are going to be more important to us than these stages. Um, And I've got to say bar, maybe one, I think pretty much that it all held. [Jamie: panned out.] It all panned out. But you know, that was really, with a massive joint intelligence operation of sort of trying to work out. . But then also every single day,between you, me and um Steph, I mean I was talking to five of the directors, in sort of like the morning to go, what you know, "Where are you at? You know, who's doing what?" because we want to tell a story from the character's perspective. So if one of the cyclists is struggling with something, we want to hear what our other cyclists might have to say about it. Or are they having parallel experiences? Opposite experiences? How do you start sort of mapping out your editorial live in the field?

Amelia
So it was always like a bit of a mix between a live OB and a documentary. Because you're kind of having to edit while you're actually in the field. Because otherwise you end up just very overwhelmed when you come to the edit, especially on the first series, right? I think once you've got past that, setting the groundwork and the foundations in place, it's easier to freestyle a bit more, but I think certainly in the first series, that was key.


Vance
seems like there's obviously uh your units shooting with the teams. Do you incorporate much of the world broadcast footage? And do you have relationship with those people?

Jamie
Yeah


Jamie
Well, with the terms of the International feed and all the rest of it? [Vance: Yeah, correct.] So yeah, obviously, you know, [Amelia: it's quite a setup] It's quite a setup. So that was the part of the challenge in the edit certainly, is because we had all that footage. So every given day, you not only got 10, sort of directors', footage, but then you've also got two helicopters, five motorbikes, a number of fixed cameras, you know, you've got all of that feed coming through. And then also, they have GoPros mounted on particular bikes, you know, like seven of the bikes every day, I think, and that would rotate. So you had that perspective as well. So you're dealing with huge amounts of [Amelia: crazy volume] material, huge amounts of footage. That's every single stage. And I think that for us, you know, that was part of the challenge in the edit was navigating that footage and having systems in place where we could navigate that footage. So yeah, the answer your question is yes, we did have access to all that. Yeah.

Amelia
And also with that is that there was a, again, at the initial stages, you have to have these very big conversations, which is, I remember having that one where they were like, "so which of these cameras do you want?" And I'm like, Whoa, can you give me a map? I mean like, where are they pointing? [Jamie: all of them!] And they were like, "well, it's not always the same every day." And I'm like, "Okay, well, how am I gonna decide which ones we're gonna?" I think there was a rule wasn't there, there was constantly like, we just knock out 50%, let's just take 50% off the table. And we'd have 50%, left. And then I'd go like, "Okay, let's take out the next 50%." And then you will kind of 25% of whatever it might be. And suddenly you're in a position where actually as humans, we can operate with that amount of information. Because anything more than that was really tough. and it was just it was crazy operations. If you imagine we've got car cameras, the system. [Jamie: Yeah, there's that as well.] With the car cameras...

Jamie
'Cause we rigged cars, obviously, all of the team cars were rigged as well

Amelia
And we had our fab- fab team, didn't we? on the on the ground?

Jamie
there was a great team, they were putting [Amelia: Apex!] Apex they were putting cards in the cameras wrangling the, amount of footage is off the scale. And obviously, we did a lot of pre-Tour filming with the teams, post-Tour filming. So you have all of that footage to deal with. [Amelia: Yeah]


Nigel
I've watched the Tour de France for I guess, 10 or 15 years before I actually went to the tour to shoot. And one day, Christian Vande Velde, who is now one of the commentators was on the team I'm shooting. And we knew he was doing very well. But that's all I knew. And I'm on my own. And he comes past the finishing line. And I rushed up to him. And I said, How's it going, you know, where did you come? And he said, I haven't got the faintest idea. [Jamie: Ha!] And one of the journalists that would appear every day, told me that to understand what was happening at the race, even though she was at the bus, she would call her husband in America, after the race, just to check her information [Jamie: yeah] before she filed her story. because you're also spread across the countryside. You know, I'm sure there was some people at the end of the day, who were 60 miles from where the end was, how difficult was it to establish what the questions were for those people to get their reaction to what their day had been like?

Jamie
I mean, WhatsApp came in handy [laugh] like, you know what I mean? [Amelia: yeah, we had huuuuuuge WhatsApp groups] We had so many groups, we had so many groups that you need to ask so and so about this, you need to, [Amelia: yeah] you know every team had a different WhatsApp Group, [Amelia: different threads.] you know what i mean,

Amelia
and it was like, and we all kind of live with, you know, the poor teams and the live blogging, they were sort of saying, we need updates of what you're filming

Jamie
we were getting texts coming through all the time about exactly what's happening. [Amelia: whats happening] And that was coming up on the phone, your phone all the time. It's like, Jonas has just attacked, or so and so blah, blah, blah. So people will be aware, exactly what was going on,

Amelia
so we had, like, an HQ trailer in there, that was on the road as well. And we're just sort of being there. And you'd have, we'd have various, like, people looking at the live sporting feeds, listening to different sporting feeds, you know, listening to Radio Tour, which is the Tour Radio, which describes the race as well, you know, Seb, Seb is very, um Seb Piquet, [Nigel: Seb Piquet yeah] who's very useful to- is really is in with the action, it's lovely. And obviously you see him in the series, um but that's very useful, as well as these WhatsApp groups.

Jamie
Yeah, I mean, having that hub, as Amelia says, you know what I mean? And that was giving out all the information to our team. Yeah, that was absolutely vital. And also understanding where everybody was because we use VeloViewer. Anyway, [Amelia: yeah, we did] we use this, the teams all use this app, basically called VeloViewer, which essentially, sort of plots the route, and where people are, and we could use that to show where our teams were, we're like you need to get here by this time, in order to see this person.


Vance
The structure seems, in a fundamental way, very similar to Drive to Survive. And I feel like it has the same effect at the end of the day, of really sparking interest in a sport that you may not have been interested in. are you connected or is it just happened to be that way?

Amelia
No, neither of us are connecrted [Jamie: No] to Drive to Survive. However, when I first started speaking to Box to Box, we were talking about Drive to Survive. And that was, I mean, maybe four years ago. one of the reasons, you know, it was great to be speaking to them is because I absolutely thought that this, taking uh a race, a sporting event, and using the inbuilt drama of sports as your kind of backbone narrative, but then being able to apply documentary rules to it, which is basically where you can kind of slow things down. And then retro-build your dramatic climaxes, get people's characters and personalities in place. So actually, when the sporting drama happens, and you get those climax points and that structure in place, you can actually make it, explain it more is the way I'd say it

Amelia
Where, what I mean by explain is, it's you explain what was at stake for the individuals involved at that point in time. By being with them on that journey. Um, and so for me, it was just, it was one of those ones, where I don't come from a sporting background at all, and, you know, sort of um you know, broader documentary is, my, um my, my bag, but um, but when I saw it, I was just like, this is just brilliant. It is just so fun. And it allows you to do things on scale, which is just really exciting. Because it's, you know, I love these big teams and big propositions and challenging [Jamie: and the drama] and the drama

Amelia
I have got to say, though the um year prior to us filming the tour, In 2021, before we got the green lights, and where we're just still doing research, and I've gone on that recce on the Tour, I was sitting at home, watching the live coverage, while listening to Tour radio, and sort of totally geeking out on a sport I knew nothing about.  I remember one point in time the commentators saying, "so is that is uh, is that um, I think that, is that _______, that um, not sure. Is it? Should we just find out if it's ______, is it? Who's? Okay, no, we don't really know who that is." And I I was like, oh, dear Lord, how am I going to do a series if they don't even know who's doing stuff? [vance laughs] Or who's doing what? How, like, what is this? And they had a real moment of being like, this is really very, very complicated to achieve. It's like, I can watch F1 sports and understand what's happening. But here, I was watching this live coverage that lasts for hours. and there were some really obvious things, like, well, obviously, the fastest guys are going to be at the front of the race, right? I mean, that's not actually a stupid assumption. But it's totally not true. So I was like...

Jamie
It's not true, [Amelia: not everyone's trying to get there first] And also, everyone in the team, everyone in a team has a different role, [Amelia: everyone has a...] They're not all going for the yellow jersey

Amelia
and their roles can change, you know, and sometimes their roles are declared, and sometimes their roles actually discovered in the moment.

Vance
Also, you know, - F1 season is like maybe 21/23 races over a course of a half a year. you're doing basically 21 races in 21 days or whatever it is

Jamie
Absolutely, it's a condensed... But also, every day, we're having to sort of readjust our plans and our strategies like exactly that. We're, we're starting again every day. And I haven't we haven't got a week in between in order to, you know, readjust what we're gonna do, or what's our story? We're having to do it that night, and say well, what's our next story going forward? So

Amelia
But it was like, if we, you know, screwed it up or got it wrong at the front, it would have been really, really hell, to try and get ourselves back on track, while charging around the whole of the French, well Denmark, Europe and the French nation. Trying to just, you know, reposition stuff, look at rushes, assess whether we'd got it right or wrong. So it's sort of a real credit to the team that, you know, we kind of did the research, right, and, you know, did actually have our cameras in the right places, generally, and managed to get that story


Nigel
One, one of the interesting things about uh the business of cycling is that sponsorship is enormously important. [Jamie: Yeah] And there's a very interesting moment at the beginning, where uh Jonathan Vaughters who I worked with for two years says to his team, "You know, guys, if we don't win a stage, we're fucked!" [Jamie: yeah!] I think those are his words, virtually. And so yeah, I mean, getting a stage or some kind of success at the Tour is crucial for a team to make its way through to the next year. And I was interested to read that Pogačar's team refused to let you guys in, so to speak. You know, perhaps that you can't tell me, but I'm interested to know, just from, you know, a negotiation point of view, what you tried to do to get them involved? Because he obviously his demise was a very crucial part of the race.

Jamie
Yeah...

Amelia
Yeah, I think that, that first series, getting teams to come on board with what we were being very, very clear about, like, we are going to be there with you. And this isn't like you can pop in and give us the up some of your race or sort of like, you know, race stage breakdown, and then we'll leave you alone. We want to be with you. And at no point in time, did I ever want any of us to be saying to the teams, "no, no, it's not going to be a big deal," So really was going in being very honest, like, look, you know, this is what's going to happen, this is what it's going to be like, there is a real reason. And you kind of have to basically trust us that when you see the final product, you will know why we've done it the way we did it. But it's a big ask. And I think it's inevitable that not all teams wanted to and not all teams, you know, some teams flung their doors open. [Jamie: yeah] And they were really, really wonderful.

Jamie
And also some teams that we didn't include really wanted to be included. [Amelia: exactly!] but we had to make choices.

Amelia
But all of this is really, really normal for first series. And I think that, reasons for any team, especially like, , Pogačar's team, or you know, very big team, he's a very big name, um having reluctance on it. Same as you know, if you look at the F1 series, you know, didn't get Hamilton [Jamie: no they didn't] in their season one. Um, and actually, at the same time, it wasn't, it was disappointing. and we felt very confident that it wouldn't be a lasting, you know, once they've seen what the series was like, the confidence would be built, but at the same time, it wasn't the end of the world. [Jamie: no] And I was really happy that we could still include him in the first series, even if we weren't behind the scenes with him.

Amelia 
And in a way, you know, as program makers, you know, we have to just find a way of telling that story. And he was the one to beat. And that's almost like enough.

Vance 
Yeah but it worked. certainly for me, I mean, Nigel's obviously been very involved, but me, you know, really knew very little. , I came away feeling, very engaged, and I now will watch the sport, just seeing what the pain and suffering these guys go through [Jamie: yes!] and the psychological strength they have.

Jamie 
Yeah, I mean, that was certainly sorry, that's certainly one of our, I think things we really, you know, big tick, really, because that's something that is very integral to the ports for, these are guys that, you know, even if they're not in a race are on their bikes for five, six hours a day. And suffering is part and parcel of the sport. I mean, it's integral to the sport, you have to learn to suffer. And I think really, I think that's one of the things we did achieve. And of course, it's not how hard it is as a sport.

Amelia 
Well, it's like, do you remember like early stages I'd get like when we're in pre production, that's fun, because I was really tired actually. Yeah, for me, it's like, because Jamie's a cyclist, right? And what are you you're like,

Jamie 
the Sunday League football.

Amelia
he's done various other stages. I'm very impressed with anyone who can do any of these stages. You know, you're psychologically going it's not about pushing yourself to the limit, you're pushing yourself to your limit, which is astonishing. Hi, athlete limits and and then you're going through that, and you're working through those pain thresholds until you get to a place that I only kind of could equate to astronauts right the idea that you are fractured molecules, I don't actually know how you hold your psychology together. When you have tortured, beaten and ripped yourself to shreds at that level and still kept going. I honestly i I'm absolutely in awe of it. And it's a very complex sport because it really is a big head sport as well as a Um, as well as a physical one, but it was that, um, you know, we were sort of talking about it early stages that that kind of visceral is that there's, you know, grit is like when yaqi They call it in France, but it's like this kind of slamming your heart on the table, and just being like, literally do or die. This is it again, my whole everything. And I think and I think that's really interesting. And for me, it was really interesting also as a following male athletes in this kind of version of masculinity, because it was very different from what maybe my assumptions had been about, you know, male athletes, it felt quite sort of challenging if I'm really honest, and really brilliant, you know, massively emotional, complete dream from the point of view of, you know, documentary makers. So did we get you to cry Did either of you to cry when you're watching the series?


Nigel 
Uh yeah, but to be honest, I'll cry at the drop of a hat [laughs]

Vance 
I didn't quite get to the crying bit, but I definitely felt emotional. especially at the end. And when uh, was it, Jasper who won right? And he let his friend cross the line? [Jamie: Yes!] To win the final stage on the Champs-Élysées. That was- I thought was amazing. [Amelia: Yeah] That actually gave me chills.

Amelia 
That was hit or miss. I wasn't always sure we could use that. Which, I was so glad the rest of the team fought back on me and said "no, it's important. We gotta to use it!" 'Cause they were right.

Vance 
It was a really beautiful moment. And it really sort, and the fact that right afterwards they said they're my brothers. The team. It really showed you the deep bond they all had together. [Jamie: Absolutely]

Nigel 
what they go through is extraordinary. One of the riders that I interviewed was on the then Garmin slipstream team. Uh, He was on the massage table, and he walked me through the 22 pieces of metal that he had in his body [Jamie: wow! wow] from his various um crashes and injur-, injuries.


Nigel 
So obviously, you're moving forward to later Tours. What did you learn? And what have you changed in your approach from your experience?

Jamie
Um... Well, I think I, I think uh, change the approach? I mean, [Amelia: I don’t know if the approach changes...] It's tricky, I mean I don’t know if we changed the approach.

Amelia 
I think, I think what you do more is I think you just hone it, don't you?

Jamie
You hone it, and you know, kind of what works. And obviously, I mean, doing any first series is very, very tricky. [Amelia: Yeah.] Doing any first series is, you're learning as you go along. And I think it's just sort of, I think, what we're doing better than necessary, you know, I mean? I mean, it's just having those systems in place. But you know, what, like, by and large, it kind of worked, didn't it? I mean, obviously, when it comes to your access with teams, and all of that you have something to show them. And it is easier, it's a lot easier, that approach. [Amelia: I think second series are always much easier] And they understand what you want. But obviously, the bar is always higher because it wasn't success,

Amelia 
So everybody needed to be a really big success again

Jamie 
Everybody wants it to be a success again. [Amelia: yeah] and I think that the bar is, is higher in that respect, and we're about what you're delivering.

Amelia 
No, I mean, I think we nailed what the series is quite well. And I think that then what you want to do is you want to do it more smoothly next time. You want to do it with less wastage, you know, as in the stuff that you didn't need to film, you know, you don't have to cover this, which [Jamie: that's right!] is hugely helpful. [Jamie: Yeah.] I think also those things that you know, do work, you know, you can kind of go okay, I'm really confident that bit works. So let's really lean into that, you know, whether it's because you've got music right, or whether it's because, you know, it could be anything or, certain contributors, certain characters that particularly shine through and really help sort of to engage the audience in the series.

Jamie 
I wouldn't say anything's massively changed. [Amelia: No] It's just as Amelia says, doing things better.

Amelia 
Yeah. Better.

Vance 
Yeah. I mean, I think the point of wasted coverage is always something you can manage.

Jamie 
Absolutely. And I think that's where you were like, "Well, that didn't really work. You don't really need to do that again." [Amelia: No, exactly.] It's things like that. So that's the point.

Amelia 
And I think the point with that, which is really important, I think, is that that's not just financial, I'm not saying it just from a financial perspective, I'm saying because, when you're in these really intense environments, you know, the team, like everyone who's in this environment, you're putting a lot of energy into stuff. And so what you want to do is make sure that you are saving all of your energy, but the elements that have got greatest chance of success, and having the knowledge and the learning to be able to start guiding that and to be able to go "no, really honestly put your camera down. This is what you're going to be focusing on" is really worth it. or these are the bits that we can pick up afterwards. We don't want to do them beforehand. We don't have to chase that story before. We'll pick it up after, once we know what the direction is. All of those bits of learning are absolutely crucial I think.

Vance 
Well me, as a cinematographer, I always learn but from what I get wrong, not from what I get, right. [Jamie: Yup] There's real value to that you can only grow and make something better by just fine tuning those things and doing what you have got right and fixing what you didn't, you know? [Jamie: Yeah, totally]

Nigel 
Some of the interviews with the key players the directeur sportifs and whatnot, I presume you did that afterwards, and then sort of slotted it back in, or...?

Jamie 
[Amelia: sometimes, sometimes not] Well, mostly, it was before and after. [Nigel: oh right, okay] I mean this is the tricky thing with doing those interviews, because you're doing them all over Europe, all over the world. And so the look has to be kind of uniform, because you want it to be uniform, which is a challenge in itself. [Amelia: Well I think you and the team did incredibly well doing that, you know] it's a challenge in itself, trying to make it uniform,


Jamie 
I mean, setting that up was like quite difficult, but... [Amelia: You know, you're wandering around with a sheet in sort of like a hotel rooms or some office or...] You've gotta light it the same and you have to have that uniformity to it. So that's tricky in itself. [Amelia: Yeah]

Nigel 
Yeah. Because it helps you model the story. [Jamie: yeah!] were there any objections to, "Well, I'm not going to do it like that," you know, I mean, was everybody just totally on board?

Amelia 
No there were some big personalities, I don’t think [laughs]

Nigel
Yes

Jamie 
With a lot of ego.

Amelia 
Total lie to just say everyone went, "Sure! Just go ahead!" And there was a lot of "No." There was a lot of "No, no, but what do you mean, why are you saying that? Was it- you could have said that." Told a lot of times, "Well, you could have asked me that in a different way, couldn't you?" And I'm like, "Well, yeah, maybe" and it's like... [laughs]

Jamie 
No, but there's always gonna be... whenever you do any documentary, it's always gonna be a bit of that, you know what I mean, people are, but some are more guarded than others.

Amelia 
Yeah. But you know, I think the job is the sort of, you know, documentary makers, precisely respect that and your role with that. Because actually, you know, those personalities, even you know, when people would disagree or push back, whatever it is, getting that and actually like that wonderful bit, did it ended up in the fun part with you and Roglič? [Jamie: yeah!] Yeah, brilliant. [Jamie: he was like, this is stupid.] Yeah where Jamie got ____, Jamie got _____ by Roglič going, "This is stupid!" You hear Jamie going "uh, um uh sorry do you think we could do that again?"

Jamie 
One of the big stars. And I was like, "Could you just try and repeat your question the answer?" and then he did it in a really sort of sarcastic way. [laughs] Probably not. I was over, you know, I mean, I understand

Amelia 
it, which is, which is great. Because he's, you know, it's totally, it's totally right. [Jamie: Or, or like, this a stupid question] Yeah

Jamie 
I got that a lot. But, you know,

Nigel 
Well, guys, I think you did a fantastic job. I'd love to talk to you for hours. I think you did an amazing job. I can't wait to see uh the next the next series. are you guys hoping this is going to run and run?

Jamie 
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think it's...

Amelia 
I think it's go so many great...

Jamie 
It's got every um emotion going. And I think that that that's infinitely fascinating to the, I'd like to say to the viewer, isn't it? So? Yeah, we would hope so.

Amelia 
I hope so. you kind of hope with these things that they have true impact and true legacy. I mean, it's done. It's done pretty well

Jamie 
And also sort of brings the sport to a wider audience. [Amelai: yeah!] I think that's an important aspect of it.


Jamie 
It's a sport, I've- I've been passionate about since like 1989, or something. [Amelia: Yeah] I've watched it as a young boy, you know, and I was enthralled by this race. , you know, 'cause it's always been my passion to bring that to people that have no idea about it. And they like "oh, actually it's quite, it's really, it's..." you know what I mean? It's something I'm most proud of.


Nigel 
my final question for you is a probably a yes or no is that I noticed at the beginning of the tour, every team was "our team," you know, "it's us against the rest." And by the time we were in the final week, and Paris and the Eiffel Tower was just over the horizon. It seemed that apart from the first four or five guys in the race, everybody was on the same team. [Jamie: Yeah.] [Amelia: that's nice. thats lovely.] Did you feel that?

Jamie
Yes! Absolutely. 100 percent

Amelia 
So lovely. That's so lovely. Lovely to hear that. [Nigel: Just the physical journey traveling, different hotel every night,] Yup. Absolutely! [Jamie: Totally!] Yeah, and you saying that gives me goosebumps and takes me back. Because that's kind of how it felt when we did get to Paris. It was like, bloody hell. This is like human endeavor. You know, this is really important.


Nigel 
Guys, thank you so much! It's a fabulous show. You should be very proud. And what I was trying to help people understand is that filming this event is spread over, you know, two and a half thousand miles. It's an extraordinary logistical thing to do from the point of view of a film crew. And thank you for sharing a bit of your stories.
À bientôt!. See you next time.

Jamie
Thank you.

Amelia
Thanks very much for having us!

Vance 
Much appreciated you guys. Thank you.

Nigel 
Merci beaucoup.


Nigel 
That was great. Thanks so much, Vance, for allowing me to uh chat with some people who do stuff which I am interested in. Did you learn anything?

Vance 
Uh Yeah, I actually learned a whole lot. for a non-cycling guy, I just always saw a lot of guys wearing very funny little outfits with lots of advertising on them riding around on their bicycles. Now I have this massive level of respect for the sport that I never had before. So I think it's great that this is in the world and I actually am really excited to see the next season.

Nigel 
Do you know what those people who wander around in very heavy advertised tight outfits are called?

Vance 
Um, cyclists?

Nigel 
No, they're called MAMILs. Middle-aged men in Lycra.

Vance 
Oh! [laugh] 

Nigel 
So dear listener, thank you for listening uh to this episode of Two Stops Over. 

Vance 
And we would love it if you could please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. That would really help us out. You can also follow the show on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook at two stops over podcast.